Jesus and Marriage and Mondays: Chad & Emily Van Dixhoorn

Dave: Okay, today, we're talking about grace-based, gospel-shaped marriage. Isn't that what we wanted when we got married?

Ann: Don't we all want that?

Dave: Well, we didn't do very well. [Laughter]

Ann: We thought we would be amazing. —

Dave: .—we just thought it'd be so easy, and then we found out it's a lot harder than you think.

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.

This is FamilyLife Today!

Ann: Grace-based marriage; that's just hard to implement.

Dave: Well, we're going to find out from the experts. They're sitting right here. [Laughter] Chad and Emily Van Dixhoorn wrote the book called Gospel-Shaped Marriage, and you're smiling. I'm just going to—I don't know what your answer is going to be, but is your gospel-shaped marriage easy?

Emily: I'll just say we need the gospel. We need God's grace. [Laughter] It's just part of everyday life for us.

Chad: And it's not easy.

Dave: Yes.

Emily: It's not easy, but I think it would be a lot harder without it.

Chad: Oh, amen!

Dave: Oh, yes.

Ann: [Laughter] I think it'd be impossible. Honestly, without Jesus, and without what He brings us, I don't think we could—we would not have made it apart from the gospel.

Dave: No, apart from Jesus.

Ann: Yes.

Emily: And it's a great place to display the gospel.

Dave: Yes.

Emily: That's what I love. When we're given a command to forgive 70 times 7 times—

In other relationships, you might be able to just walk away, but not in marriage. In marriage, you get to forgive 70 times 7 times and—

Dave: —that was last week. [Laughter]

Emily: —oh, that's funny! [Laughter]

Dave: No, I'm saying that it [feels like] every day, doesn't it?

Emily: Yes.

Dave: Yes, and you have got to keep going.

Emily: It's so true.

Ann: You're right! When people see that on display—we called it a “head-tilt.” It's like a head tilt, [wondering], “How are they doing that?” It's because it's a display of the gospel.

Dave: Well, tell our listeners what you do.

Chad: I'm a professor of Church History and Theology at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Dave: Some people are going to say, “That doesn't sound very exciting,” but it is, isn’t it?

Chad: Oh, well, it's exciting for me, and I try to make it exciting for students.

Dave: Emily was telling me, when we were walking over here, that you make it exciting. It isn't just a professor, teaching boring stats. You bring it to life, right?

Emily: Yes, he reenacts history in his classes. He has his students engaging in debates over theology. It sharpens us.

Dave: That's teaching. That's good.

Emily: And I'm a stay-at-home mom. I love to study the Bible. I pray for my kids. I pray with other moms for their kids. That's what I do.

Dave: How many kids?

Emily: Five.

Dave: Whoa! What ages, from what to what?

Chad: 23, 21,19,17, and 12.

Dave: I'm impressed you know the ages. [Laughter] That's very good. I always get them wrong. I always do.

Chad: I am on a FamilyLife podcast. [Laughter]

Dave:  You better know these things!

Chad: It’s worth a review.

Dave: You studied up, didn’t you?

Chad: I actually did.

Dave: Well, let me start here, and this isn't even straight out of your book, but what would you say—I love asking couples this; how long have you been married?

Emily: 25 years.

Dave: Alright. Biggest struggle?

Chad: I think, answering personally, my mode of existence and relations was pretty manipulative when we first got married. I really do think I had a marriage of manipulation where I did a lot of passive-aggressive stuff. So, just learning to really love Emily, communicate in a way that's much more God-honoring, and acknowledge my own faults to a much more significant degree.

Dave: Emily, did you feel that? Were you feeling manipulated?

Emily: No, I think he is being hard on himself right now.

Dave: Really?

Emily: I think a lot of this is more of what I would say is interior: what's going on in his motives? I can say, he's probably speaking the truth, in that he wasn't trusting God and encouraging me in my Christian freedom as much as he might like; but it was hard to detect. It wasn't like he came across to me as a manipulative person.

Ann: Yes.

Emily: But he knows in his heart that he was still trying to kind of push me in one direction rather than leading me in a winsome way in that direction.

Chad: Yes.

Emily: So, it's more subtle—

Dave: —yes.

Chad: —I think that it probably is fair, yes.

Emily: —than, I think, what he's saying. But sometimes it's helpful to put it in a bit harsher terms for ourselves, so that we know where we want to be and where we don't want to be.

Dave: When you think of what I asked, and Chad answered with that, did you have a different answer—biggest struggle?

Ann: What was hard for you, Emily?

Emily: Oh, the hardest thing for me is when I need to follow a bad idea he has. [Laughter]

Dave: Husbands never have bad ideas.

Chad: Oh, man!

Dave: Could you tell us about one?

Emily: There are too many. I don't want to take up all the time. [Laughter] No, but it also might just be the way—when we have a difference as to how we want to respond to one of the kids—

Dave: —yes.

Emily: —and I'm put in a position where I think we should respond this way, but I want to show respect toward him, especially in front of the kids. It's just difficult. So, that sharpens my prayer life, and I need to trust the Lord that, even if I don't like what he's doing, the Lord has got this. The Lord can work through whatever decision he's making.

Ann: But would you go into another room, apart from the kids, and tell him—

Dave: —I think she's asking because that's what she does.

Ann: —what your thoughts were concerning—

Emily: —yes. He gives me opportunity to do that, so that is our go-to plan.

Ann: Yes.

Emily: But sometimes [Laughter] I speak too quickly and—

Ann:  —me, too, Emily.

Emily: —that’s the hardest thing: to maintain that self-control; maintain the trusting the Lord, and go to: “Hi, could we step out for a minute?”

Dave: Talk to us about the title, Gospel-Shaped Marriage. What does that mean?

Chad: We came up with the subtitle.

Ann: Which is a good one.

Chad: Yes.

Ann: Grace For Sinners to Love Like Saints.

Emily: We are sinners; we know we're sinners, but God gives us grace, and He transforms us so that we actually can love like saints. We really rejoice in the fact that God doesn't leave us where we are. Yes, He forgives us. All our sins are covered, and that is worth celebrating.

But there's more. He also transforms us and empowers us to love like saints. And sometimes, we even shine brighter when the other one isn't doing so great, [Laughter] in the sense that we get to show God's grace and love and compassion and kindness genuinely as God shows that to us when we're having a hard time. So, I think that's how we want to encourage people.

Chad: Yes, and I think that we've been really blessed by books that remind us that a spouse is a sinner, not a savior. We've been blessed by thinking through the fact that we are really completely forgiven for all of our sins. When we see our foolishness, we see in Christ our wisdom. When we see our sin, we see in Christ our righteousness. When we feel our shame, we find our dignity in Christ. All that's liberating. That's the bedrock of the way we want to think about marriage and each other; but then, God's grace is so extravagant that He also changes us.

So, I don't want to just say, “Well, she's a sinner. I'm a sinner.” I also want to say, “Yes, we're not just forgiven. The Holy Spirit’s at work. How can we help each other, as sinners, become a little bit more holy, become saint-like?” That's one of the things we really care about.

Emily: And it's not by me telling you what you need to do, but it's by me looking at what commands God gives you and saying, “How can I make that easier for you?” So, I think, “Okay, God has commanded him to love me, so what can I do to be more lovable?” I can make him food he likes. When he goes away on a trip, I can put on a skirt and some heels when he comes back. There are things I can do to make his job easier.

Ann: So, yes. [Laughter]

Dave: Did you hear that, honey? Skirts and some heels. Next time I go on a trip, I have new expectations.

Ann: Some of our listeners are [thinking], “Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.” (This is what they're thinking.) “Why would I do that when he does nothing? When he does nothing.…”

Dave: But you're going to love like a saint.

Emily: Go-to “Number One” is the gospel. What did Jesus do for us when we did nothing?

Chad: Yes, He didn't come for people who are already beautiful; people who are kind; people who are moving towards Him.

Ann: So, talk to the woman or the man who feels like, “My spouse is giving nothing. They don't even care”—

Emily: —yes.

Ann: —“about me or the kids. They're giving me nothing. I have no idea how to apply the gospel in my heart when all I feel is anger.”

Emily: Yes, that is a very difficult place to be. I think the more we look for that person to give us something, and the more we put our hope in that place,—

Dave: —the angrier we'll get.

Emily: —yes, and the more stuck we will be.

Ann: Yes.

Emily: But if we look to Jesus and what He's given to us and say, “Lord, how can I give back to You?” And He says, “Love your neighbor” (meaning that spouse you live with). [Matthew 22:39] And He says, “As you give a cup of cold water to the least of these, you give it to Me.” [Matt 10:42; 25:37-40, paraphrased] As you love that spouse who's doing nothing for you, that's the way you serve Jesus.

Ann: “You're doing that unto Me.”

Emily: Yes, to Jesus. I'm doing it for Jesus, and I'm going to do it with a smile. I'm going to do it with a genuine heart. I'm not going to say, “Hey, I'm giving this, because I'm giving it to Jesus.” [Laughter] You do it with respect and honor to that person; and yes, I'd love for him to change, but that's in God's hands.

Dave: Talk to the person—because whenever we speak at marriage conferences or whatever, and we get anywhere near this “love like a saint”—those are great terms), but love unconditionally, like Jesus did [for] us—it's always important for us to make sure we understand: there are people out there being abused.

Emily and Chad: Yes.

Dave: Talk to the person who may hear that and [think], “Well, the Christian thing to do is just take it and love.” What would you say to that person?

Chad: There is gospel-hope for abusers, but the home doesn't need to be the safe place for the abuser. No, this is supposed to be a safe place for everyone. So, if there's an abusive (usually) husband in the home, the wife [and] the children need to get out of there. God can do His work of grace in that man's life without them being present; without them being involved. He can use other people.

The Christian family is a big family; the Church is a big church. Someone else can be involved in that person's life, and they need to get to a place of safety.

Dave: Yes.

Chad: That's what God calls them to do. As a Christian man, I want to sound that note every time we do a marriage conference. We want to sound that note. We sound that note a couple times in our book. We want to make that very clear.

Dave: Yes.

Emily: Yes. Jesus is our Protector, and that's a priority: safety.

Chad: And one way He protects us is by calling us out of such situations.

Dave: Right, yes.

Emily: Yes—and get help.

Ann: But I love this idea of knowing what God has called our spouse to: not to hold it over their heads, but to help them. So, what has God called the wife and the husband to?

Chad: Ephesians 5 is just a wonderful place to go to. [It’s] just so helpful, the way in which the apostle Paul unpacks our different responsibilities. Although he puts ladies first, let me go ahead and talk about the men. [Laughter]

A husband is called to love his wife as Christ loved the Church. That means he's to love her sacrificially, thoughtfully, plan-fully. His life with his wife cannot remain unaltered. For him to love his wife as Christ has loved the Church, he can't live with all his conveniences. He needs to be giving stuff up for her.

And he's going to love her not just when she is lovable. There's a pursuit there, that we see in Christ. He comes to those who turn their backs on Him. He comes to those who don't have sweet words; who don't think through what they're saying to Him, what they're thinking about Him. He still comes to us. Then, also, as Christ is the perfect Leader of His Church, of His Household, we seek to be holy, godly leaders in our family, seeking to imitate what He does for us.

Then, I want to think about this a second way. A lot of good marriage advice says, “Now you, hubby, think about your duties. You, wife, think about your duties. Never mind your spouse’s.” The second layer of my responsibility as a husband is to look at my wife's tasks; not to point out her failings, not to call her to her duties, but to say, “Well, now, if her job is to respect and honor me, how can I make myself respectable? How can I make her calling sweeter?”

Ann: As you're talking about this, it sounds like, “How can I, as a man in my calling with the gospel, treasure my wife?”

Chad: Exactly, yes.

Ann: I was [thinking] you sound like this treasure; “How can I handle my treasure? How can I love and show this woman, who I really treasure, how much I love her?” That's compelling. As a woman, I'm like, “That is good! [Laughter] That is really good!”

Emily: He does treat me well. He says—he treats me like the “Queen of the House,” and it's very lovely.

Yes, I'm called to honor him, but he honors me in his way, too, out of love for me. I'm thinking about the call that wives have, both to be helpers and companions. We're called to be companions, so we are side-by-side companions. I'm also in submission to him, so we don't come into conflict that much, but I will yield to him.

In my mind, a useful image is that of a two-headed snake. We are one, and I don't want to be that second head. It's a disgusting image. So, we work better together when he is the head, and I am the body, as described for the—

Chad: —I'm not sure a single-headed snake is a much more beautiful analogy. [Laughter]

Emily: Well, a two-headed one is pretty bad. [Laughter]

Submission is something that Jesus does. Jesus submits to the Father, and He shows the dignity in that role. So, we're all called to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives are called to excel in that role.

Dave: Well, you brought up the “S” word: submission.

Emily: Yes.

Dave: Talk to the wife who struggles hearing that.

Ann: And let me add: I think all of us, as women, have different scenarios and things that have happened to us in the background to taint the view. I had a mom who I felt was a doormat, and my dad took great advantage of her, and it would make me mad. I wasn't in a home that followed Christ, but I said, not even knowing Jesus: “I will never be that person that just lays down and has no voice.”

So, when I come into marriage and, now, I've given my life to Jesus, and I hear this word “submit,” I'm [thinking], “I don't even know how I would go about this, because the word just makes me angry.” So, I think to understand what it really means. . .

Emily: I think the first place to go is to think it's an orientation, where my life is oriented toward his and toward helping him. If I'm a doormat, I'm not helping him. So, I am going to speak up and give him a good word when he needs it. He may not always enjoy that, [Laughter] but I do it respectfully. I don't just do it to vent. I do it out of love. But that's the way I help him, and God has called wives to be helpers.

Dave: Have you had some of those conversations?

Chad: Oh, yes. I mean, I'll show Emily letters that I'm about to send off, because I really want her input. By the way, I've sent letters and not had her input, [Laughter] and then afterwards, she said, “You know, —[i]

Dave: —“you should have asked me.” [Laughter]

Chad: —"you could have said this or that.” And I said, “Oh, yes, that's good.” We're constantly dialoging about children, money matters, or just any number of things where this is the dynamic.

Emily: There have been a few times where you've had an opinion about something, and you were pretty convinced of it. I challenged you on it, and you said, “Actually, that's really helpful.” Then you took a different perspective.

Ann: Yes, that's good. And you're right. See, I think it's good that you’re pointing out [that] it doesn't mean we lose our voice. But for me, I had to learn to take my voice to the Father first and to ask Him, “Lord, how should I present this?” Wouldn't we all want that to happen?

Emily: Yes.

Ann: Instead of somebody just blasting us, I would much prefer the person go before God and say, “How should I present this, or say it, or communicate it, in a way they can hear without getting defensive?”

Because I had done it so often to Dave in a mean, antagonistic way. He's not going to hear that. But when I take it in respect, and I've taken it before the Father, then I can say it in a way that Dave can hear it. He doesn't have a wall and a defensiveness that comes up automatically. So, I think it's beautiful how you're saying that.

Chad: Just this past weekend, we had this fun adventure at our hotel. The bathroom above us had somebody who flooded his bathtub three times—

Ann: —no!

Chad: —so we had water coming through the lights—

Dave: --what?

Chad: —and then through the ceiling—

Dave: —in a hotel?

Chad: —in our hotel room, yes. So, we called them up and said, “Hey, it's raining in here!” [Laughter] You know, I tend to get pretty unhappy about situations like that. I begin to think, “We're paying for this.” [Laughter]

Dave: Yes.

Chad: “This is unjust.” And Emily just really helpfully kept bringing me back to the fact that God is providing, right?

One of the ways He provided is I have this app on my phone that makes white noise. I just turned it to the rain setting, [Laughter] turned it really loudly, and then we couldn't hear the rain in our room. [Laughter] And it was missing our bed, and it didn't get any of our stuff wet.

So, Emily's pointing out, “God's providing, and we'll probably get a free room at this hotel some other time,” but I was thinking about the justice issue and getting really quite worked up.

Dave: Yes.

Chad: She's thinking about God's provision—

Ann: —I love it!

Chad: —and it was just very helpful. I did get to sleep eventually with the—

Dave: —please tell us you got another room.

Chad: The next night, because we already had someone—

Dave: Hopefully, they compensated you on that day. [Laughter]

Emily: We'll see!

Ann: We’ll see the justice. [Laughter]

Emily: We’ll see. We’ll see.

Chad: We haven’t—

Dave: —you still haven’t figured that out yet?

Chad: —worked that out yet. Yes, we've been too busy to actually call up—

Emily: We'll ask them to listen and—

Chad: —yes.

Emily: —see what they should do.

Dave: If they listen, we can tell the audience the name of the hotel [Laughter] (if they do the right thing). [Laughter] If they do the wrong thing, we'll tell them, too.

Ann: Well, let me ask you as we close today: what would you want our listeners—like this has been thought provoking; it's challenging, too, but what would you want—to leave them with?

Emily: God comforts us with the gospel, and we're to comfort others with the comfort we receive.

Dave: Second Corinthians [1:3,4]; yes.

Emily: So, let’s comfort our spouse with the gospel, and remember that there is grace for sinners who don't deserve it. The more we love Jesus and are thankful for what He's done for us, the more we will find the strength to love our spouse.

Shelby: Coming up in a second, Chad is going to talk about something kind of controversial. You may have heard this before, but he's going to talk about how the husband is the head and the wife is the body analogy. Sometimes, people have a really difficult time with that comparison. Well, Chad's going to talk about it in just a second, so stick around.

But first, I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Chad and Emily Van Dixhoorn on FamilyLife Today. They've both written a book, Chad and Emily. It's called Gospel-Shaped Marriage: Grace For Sinners to Love Like Saints. This book will really help you understand how Christ empowers and calls you as a husband and a wife to cultivate a loving and supportive marriage, grounded in biblical principles and practical wisdom.

You can get your copy of Gospel-Shaped Marriage right now by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com. You can find it in the show notes, or you can give us a call. Our number is 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” Just request your copy of Chad and Emily Van Dixhoorn’s Gospel-Shaped Marriage.

Okay, I teased it a little bit, but let's hear Chad's thoughts on the husband as the head and the wife as the body.

Chad: I want to come back to the “head and body” analogy that the apostle Paul uses. A lot of times, when a woman hears it, where she's the body and he's the head, she thinks of herself as someone who's unimportant; some kind of vestigial element of what she used to be. But interestingly, earlier in Ephesians 1, verse 22, the apostle Paul says that the Church is the fullness of Him who fills everything in every way. The Church, which is the Body, fulfills the Head, that's Christ.

Now, that’s a staggering statement because you think about how all-sufficient and wonderful Christ is, that in some way the Church is the fullness of Him.

One of the reformers says, “It's a bit like the apostle Paul saying, ‘I'm only half a man unless my wife is with me’.” That what he's saying that Christ says about His Church.

One of the old Puritans says, “It's as if my home is empty when my children are not at home.” In other words, that grand image of what the body is to the head that begins the epistle is still what's in mind when we get near the end of the epistle.

When that model gets used in marriage, it's still that same rich, full, loving view of the body that the head has. So, keeping that in mind, as the apostle Paul uses that metaphor, I think, really enriches the way in which husbands think about their wives, and wives think about themselves, and all of us think about the gospel.

Dave: That's great.

Ann: I want to take your class. [Laughter]

Shelby: Now, tomorrow, Chad and Emily Van Dixhoorn are coming back to talk with the Wilsons about discovering practical, faith-based advice on marriage for everything from conflict resolution to mutual support. That's coming up tomorrow. We hope you'll join us.

On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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