Before the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse: Ron & Nan Deal

Ron: God’s little joke on us about marriage is that we take our vows at the beginning of our wedding, and then life teaches us what we committed ourselves to. [Laughter]

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.

Dave: This is FamilyLife Today!

Ann: Do you feel like you’ve been on a cruise all week? [Laughter]

Dave: Yes! I'm reliving the cruise we were on—

Ann: —me, too—

Dave: —back in February, which was awesome! This whole week has been a week of cruise talks that we all heard on the Love Like You Mean It^® cruise. And if you weren’t on it—I mean, you get the benefit now of hearing it, but it's better in person.

Ann: It really is.

Dave: I mean, you're out in the sun and the wind, and there are people and food and ports and musicians and bands and comedians and great marriage messages; so, you're having a great, relaxing vacation, but you're working on your marriage at the same time.

Ann: And what's different about being on the cruise is, generally, if you go to any kind of marriage conference, it's great, but then you're quickly back into the reality of a home that's busy and things that are going on.

Dave: Yes.

Ann: This gives you a chance to really talk through some things, because you have days. It's almost a week that you're on the cruise together, so you can really talk deeply without being interrupted. It's great, and we really encourage you to sign up today to come on the Love Like You Mean It marriage cruise with us.

Dave: So, sign up today for the Love Like You Mean It cruise in 2025. It’s in February, and you can sign up at FamilyLifeToday.com and be with us because we'll be there next February, and we'd love to have you there with us. But today, we get to hear one of the talks we heard on the cruise from Ron and Nan Deal. Many of you know Ron and Nan. Ron leads our Blended Family ministry here at FamilyLife. He and Nan were on the boat. Actually, they were almost roommates, because they were just down the hall, on the ship, from our room.

Ann: Yes.

Dave: And it’s a powerful, powerful message.

[Recorded Message]

Ron: Let me tell you a quick story: some of you have heard the name John Gottman. If you've been through any marriage education classes, or gone through Art of Marriage^®, or anything like that (been to a Weekend to Remember^®), somebody somewhere probably referenced some John Gottman research. He's kind of considered to be the guru among marital researchers in the United States. He’s at the University of Washington.

Thirty years ago, he came out with a book that said: “We know what predicts divorce, and when we see it at these levels, then we can predict with 93% accuracy whether couples will divorce within 5 years.”

“When you see these four things happening, the end is near,” is basically what he's saying. When you see criticism at a regular frequency, when you see contempt between partners at a level that is outside the norm—we all do all four of these, but there's a range that's sort of normal, and when you push beyond that, you can basically say, “In 3 to 5 years, this thing's going to come to an end.” What is contempt? Contempt is criticism on steroids. Contempt is not just saying something that's critical of them, but something intentionally insulting. So, it's not just, “Ah! You burned dinner,” it's, “You’re stupid! Why did you burn dinner?” It's adding that extra measure of pain to the comment.

So, criticism, contempt; and then he said number three is withdrawal. So, it's emotional; it would look like this [turning away from Nan]. If we're having a conflict, and we can't figure it, and out I just throw my hands up and say, “I can't do this!” Retreating to the other room, or even retreating across the room, or basically just turning your heart off toward your partner. The “on steroids” version of withdrawal is the fourth one, and that's called stonewalling. That's where I don't even really even bother trying to engage you. (By the way, that call is for you.) [Laughter] Stonewalling is [when] I just write you off, and I put a stiff arm up, and I'm not even. . .

Okay, you could see those are pretty heavy, pretty extreme. So, he did that book 30 years ago. That's been quoted in reference over and over and over again within the Christian Community [and] outside. By the way, John Gottman is not a believer; he's not a Christian guy, but we've sort of learned some things from some of his work. That was 30 years ago. In 2011, he came out with a book called The Science of Trust, and in the first chapter of that book, he says, “Well, we got the four horsemen right, but we missed something.” And in that book, he says, “We missed the importance of trust, the importance of the permanence of knowing that you can rely on this person to be there for you.” Ad what he said is, “Our continued research has discovered that without trust, the four horsemen appear.” In other words, the precursor to the four horsemen is a lack of trust. Wow!

And then, he said, in his science sort of way, “We had to quantify what trust would look like so we could put it into a computer, and assign numbers to it, and watch it, and watch couples interact with one another: ‘Was that a trustworthy action? Was that an untrustworthy behavior on their part? Was that comment helping them build trust, or was it taking away?’” And they’ve got to quantify all this stuff; so, he said, “We had to come up with a definition of what trust is.” And here's what this secular researcher-scientist came up with. “Trust is coming to realize and really rely on the idea that your partner isn't just looking after their own self-interest but is looking after your interests.”

Listen to Philippians 2, talking about what a humble heart does in a relationship:

Nan: “Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility, count others more significant than yourselves.”

Ron: And the next part is: “Look not only to your own interests—”

Nan: —“but the interests of others.”

Ron: —"but look to the interest of others.” John Gottman, a secular researcher, said, “You know what builds trust? It’s when you know the other person has your best interest at heart.”

And 2,000 years ago, we already had a clue that that was what it’s really all about. And so, it comes back to this idea of: “Wait a minute! My heart about my relationship with God, and my heart about how I put on humility toward my wife, has everything to do with the permanence of our relationship. It has everything to do with the solidarity of it. And if my heart is not in the right place, and I stand up in pride, then all of a sudden, it generates a weakness in us that's not helpful.”

Folks, this is marriage I have to manage my heart. Now, thumb wars are all about managing the other person’s heart. [Laughter] Most of us spend—listen to me; most of us spend—our entire marriage trying to manage the other person's heart. In other words, we keep trying to get the other to be for us what we feel like we need to be; and whose interest am I looking out for when I do that? My own.

Nan: Yes

Ron: I'm not being selfless. By the way, looking after the interests of the other does not mean you don't look after your own interests. You don't [not] do self-care; of course, you do self-care! That's a balanced approach. You manage you and take care of you and what you need. Some of you went and worked out this morning. What does your body need? You to do that. You do that emotionally; you speak up for yourself. It doesn't mean you become milk toast, and they can walk all over you. It doesn't mean any of that at all! You can have self-respect and bring that self-respect, in sacrifice and in love and care for her.

Now, she has to do the same. What happens if we have an “usness,” and I stand up in pride? We have weakness! But I can always go back into humility, and it creates an opportunity for strength again.

Nan: Yes.

Ron: As you were doing this [thumb wars], we noticed it takes some intentionality.

Nan: It does.

Ron: You’ve got to communicate a little bit: “Don’t! That hurts!” you know? I mean, you kind of have to work through it as a couple just to even, physically, do this; and it takes a little gentleness.

[Studio]

Ann: You’re listening to Family Life Today, and we've been listening to Ron and Nan Deal give a talk on the Love Like You Mean It marriage cruise. As always, they are incredibly practical. As you’re listening, if there's something on today's episode that you're just clicking with, we want you to know that you're not alone, because every single marriage has a fair share of highs, but also lows.

Dave: And if you’re like us, you’re wondering, “Where do we get help? Where can we go to get help?”

Ann: Exactly!

Dave: Well, first of all, you're getting help right now, and we're thankful that you're listening; but we also want to share one of our favorite resources. It's a free guide that's filled with helpful marriage wisdom from real-life couples who've been where you are. And you can grab your free copy today at familylife.com/marriagehelp. That’s familylife.com/marriagehelp.

You’ve only heard just a little part of the talk that Ron and Nan Deal gave on the Love Like You Mean It cruise this past February, and we're going to go right back to it and let you hear the rest of their talk. And let me just remind you: you can join us next year! Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and sign up and be on the cruise.

Let's go back to Ron and Nan: 

[Recorded Message]

Ron: We’re really good at looking out.

Nan: Oh, yes!

Ron: Make the other person look after your interest. That's not the way marriage works.

Nan: No.

Ron: That's agenda; that's control; that's pride. “I see in you something that needs to change, and I have the right to change it.” That's pride! Better to look in the mirror and say, “How do I humbly be more like Jesus, as much as I can possibly be, right here, right now, no matter what's happening in us? No matter what's happened in the past, how do I bring that to this equation?

Nan: And I don't know if you're like me, but I can have the best intentions at the beginning of the day. I'm lying in bed, and I'm like, “Lord, I want to surrender to you. I humbly come before you. I want to put on humility today in everything that I do.” And I get up, and he's done something with the coffee or something with the dog or something, and I have shredded that off and thrown that off and put on me quickly.

And then I'm back to—and I think it's just a daily surrender. Sometimes, for me, it can be a minute-by-minute, hour-by-hour surrender. I don't think it's one and done. I think it's a posture, and a practice, and going back to the Lord daily.

Ron: We said it takes three things to kind of make that happen: intentionality, communication, and gentleness.  I just want to [share] a couple of thoughts around intentionality.

Nan: Well, you’re being intentional.

Ron: I was going to say, “You’re here.”

Nan: Ta-da! You’re here.

Ron: Give yourself a pat on the back.

Nan: High five each other.

Ron: High five each other.

Nan: You’re on this cruise, being intentional—

Ron: —there you go!

Nan: —about your relationship and your love.

Ron: And when you go home—

Nan: —oh, yes!

Ron: —you’ve got to continue that, not in a massive way, as in big expense, big time and energy, and what-not to be on this thing; but that daily, little 10-minutes-here, 5- minutes-there; those check-ins; just being intentional to look after one another’s interests.

Nan: And I don’t care what season you're in. You know, when you've got little ones, it's hard to be intentional, you know, because they're pulling on you. When you're in the middle of building your career, that's pulling on you; but even though we're empty nest, and we have all the time in the world, our usness gets lost in that. We turn around and say, “What week is this?” and “Who are you?” And we have to be intentional about stopping and saying, “No! It's about us.”

Ron: Yes.

Nan: So, I believe there are some things that pull at you and pull at that. I think it's kids; I think it can be work; I think it can be the phone; and I think it can be past pain—hurt between the two of you. If there's been any past pain, or you have past pain that you drug into your marriage, if you haven't worked on that, that's going to affect the intentionality and the usness.

Ron: First Corinthians 13 is a very familiar passage to all of us. It's the love chapter, right? And you probably had it at your wedding. You've probably been at somebody else's wedding, where somebody referenced First Corinthians 13. Who can tell me the first two words of First Corinthians 14? So, in English, the first two words of Chapter 14, verse 1, are: “Pursue love.” And it's not just, “Hey! Here's this love thing. Go get it!” (as in, “I hope you just mosey through life and discover it”).

No! It's an active, very intentional, “Go after this thing! Chase it down! Do whatever you have to do!” That's the love that I just described. That's the love you're supposed to become as a person. That's the intentionality we need to have in our marriages. Doing this finger thing is difficult, and it's easy to just slip away from it, because life wants to pull you in all directions; but pursue love as best you can.

Let's talk about communication real quick!

Nan: Sure, go for it!

Ron: There are so many things we can talk about as it relates to communication, of course, but we just want to say a couple things about being a better listener. Not that listening is everything, but it is a place of—where are my friends? Where are the Stewarts, Gill and Brenda, that introduced us a little while ago?

I'm quoting them. Their word is “connectication.” Communication is about connecting. That's ultimately what it's going to get you as a result of speaking and listening well with one another, and that's what we're after; not just sharing information, but actually connecting hearts.

Nan: And I think the listening starts when the other person starts talking; because I don't know about you, but as soon as Ron starts talking, I shut off the part of the listening, and I'm getting ready to either defend myself, or give an answer, or—I don't know—I'm talking in my head about what he's saying; and I stop completely listening and receiving what he is saying.

Listen to what God's word says to us: “My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak”—even in your mind—"and slow to become angry.” [James 1:19] Listen to this in Proverbs 18:13; I love this one—and that was James by the way. “To answer before listening, that is folly and shame.”

We have a practice, in my recovery ministry, where, when we're in our groups, we don't cross-talk. I also say to my girls all of the time: “Let’s invite the Holy Spirit into this moment, for Him to speak into this moment. We're not going to cross-talk and come up with all these answers, or [say], ‘Oh, I have a great example of that, because that happened to me or happened to so-and-so.’ Let's just sit and listen, and receive what people are saying to us.” And I think that's such a good practice in our marriages.

Ron: I would just add [that] listening always requires skills we don't naturally have. Some of us are kind of better at it, naturally, than others; but others, like me, have to work at that. I just want to encourage you: if you realize, “Man, I'm just not very good at that,” then, work at it.

My story is, I want to graduate school in my late 20s, studying to be a marriage and family therapist.

Nan: Woo hoo!

Ron: And I got straight As in my graduate [program]. I [had] never had straight As in my life, and then, I got to graduate school and kind of found my niche. I did really well, until our first practicum, where we had to buddy up with a partner and go into a therapy room and turn on the VCR—a VCR—

Nan: —VCR, y’all!

Ron: —it’s a big thing like this [hand motions]. And we had to record ourselves.

Nan: That just dated us!

Ron: It sure did! And then, [we had to] bring that recording back in to the next class with all the other students and the professor, and show ourselves trying to do listening skills in front of everybody. And I flunked every single time, in part because I didn't have any vocabulary for feeling words. I just didn't know. I'm a man! I know anger and lust, and that's pretty much it, right? Can I get an “amen” from somebody in this audience?

You know, those I understand, but all those other emotions and words—"I don't know what those are, and there are levels of words? Like they're all sort of related, but not the same.” And that was just so confusing to me. I had to learn a vocabulary. I had to learn how to hear it. I had to work at that over and over and over and over and over again.

Who knew, when I got married, that I was going to have to do that?

God's little joke on us about marriage is that we take our vows at the beginning of our wedding, and then life teaches us what we committed ourselves to. [Laughter] And the whole time, God’s just sort of laughing. “Yep! There's another one, Ron. You’ve got to learn that one! You didn't have a vocabulary; [but] it's time to learn!”

When you discover those little things that are in the way of you being a good listener, go to work on it! No shame; just work on it, because it has dramatic payoffs. And then, the last thought: let's just say something about gentleness.

Nan: Oh, gentleness. It’s one of the fruits of the Spirit, right? And isn't it so easy with that teeny, tiny little baby? You can be so gentle with them, your own children, the neighbors’ children, sometimes. You’re gentle. And with my kids at school, I was so gentle. With that puppy I'm raising, [I’m] so gentle with her. Him, not so much! [Laughter]

And when it comes to us, and there’s been some pain—and let me tell you, we've done some pain to each other.

Ron: We have.

Nan: I don't want to be so gentle with him. I don't see him like I see my boys and that dog (and most of you). I don't want to be gentle! And I forget [that] he's a child of God! This man standing before you—my husband of 38 years—is a child of God. God sees him as precious. He knows every hair on his head.

Ron: A few I’ve lost!

Nan: That’s right. [Laughter]

And there are times in the pain, and in the 38 years of the pride, that I don't look at you, [Ron], with gentleness. And that is something I need to work on; seeing you as, “No, wait! That is a child; that is God's child right there! Come before Me, and love him like I love him; forgive him like I forgive him; show grace and mercy to him like I do.”

Ron: One of the things some of you know that we’re really passionate about teaching is coming to understand your own pain so you can see how it controls you, how it changes you; what action follows pain. And then, when that intersects with your partner, it creates bad stuff. And the way out is to really know yourself and learn how to not let that pain dictate who you are. That's a whole journey in and of itself, but in the process of discovering one another's pain, if you will, I watch her unpack her life, and the things that have preceded me—the things that I've done that have caused her difficulty and pain in her life, and that hang with her, and every time I see those things, I have to put on gentleness for what that is.

Because what's easy to do is to get wrapped up in, “Yeah, but you don't know why I did what I did and what was going on!” It’s that whole “defend yourself” thing. And instead, to put that aside and just see the pain, be compassionate for what's going on in her, whether it was about me or not about me; especially when it is about me, I really have to put me aside and look after the interests of the other.

That is a huge, massive discipline—maybe it’s just me; it’s really hard for me; it may not be that tough for you; I think it's hard for most people—that is gentleness applied to delicate feelings, and if I don't do that, then I show her to be somebody unreliable of looking after her best interest, and I'm just squashing trust.

We don't need any more of that. We need less of that. Those are disciplines. This is hard work! It’s God's little joke on us. Like I said, “We take our vows at the beginning of our wedding, and then life teaches us what we committed ourselves to become.” And we work at it, and we work at it, and by the grace of God, we get there.

[Studio]

Dave: You're listening to FamilyLife Today, and we've been listening to a talk that Ron and Nan Deal gave on the Love Like You Mean It cruise this past February. That last section about gentleness—

Ann: —I really liked it.

Dave: —I know why you liked it [Laughter], because you want me to be more gentle, right?

Ann: Gentleness is like a language in and of itself. And I'm saying this to myself as well; because everyone responds to that, rather than being harsh or critical or demanding. When a person comes in gently—and with hard things, but gently—it's much easier and much more palatable to receive.

Dave: Yes; and for years, you told me that I was often harsh.

Ann: Yes.

Dave: And I always responded harshly, like, “What are you talking about!?” [Laughter]

And you were right, and I couldn't see it; but when you allow God—I think it's God Who has to do it; to soften you.

Ann: Yes, it’s a fruit of the Spirit. Yes, self-control.

Dave: Yes, and when He softens you, and you admit your harshness, or your anger, or your sternness, and say, “God, I need you to tenderize my heart,” and then you start speaking and acting that way toward your spouse, it can save a marriage. It can save a family.

Ann: This week, we’ve heard a ton of practical ways to help your marriage!

Dave: Yes.

Ann: And we really hope and pray that you'll receive some of those, and not just receive them, but apply them to your marriage by God's grace.

Dave: Yes, and we'd love to have you with us next February on the Love Like You Mean It cruise, where all these talks you’ve heard this week came from. You’d love it! You’d love it, and it’s even better when you're there in person.

Ann: It sure is!

Dave: So, go to FamilyLifeToday.com and sign up, and join us. Let’s have a great week together next February, and let God change us, and even use you and your spouse to change others as well.

Shelby: That’s right! And the good news is that Dave and Ann Wilson will be there on the boat this coming February. So, I encourage you to check it out.

I'm Shelby Abbott, and you’ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Ron and Nan Deal on FamilyLife Today. The cruise is happening this February. I know Dave was saying next February, but don't be confused. It's this February, from the 8^th through the 15^th, and you can learn more by heading over to FamilyLifeToday.com. Dave was right about that!

Just click on the banner that says Love Like You Mean It marriage cruise, and it'll give you all the information you need about the cruise happening this year. The cool thing is if you book before September 30^th (so, you’ve got about 5 days or so)—if you book before September 30^th, you're going to save $400 per stateroom. That’s right! You’re going to save $400 if you book in the next five days! You can visit FamilyLifeToday.com. Just click on the Love Like You Mean It marriage cruise banner, and you’ll be able to secure your spot with the Wilsons this coming February, from the 8^th to the 15^th.

Now, coming up tomorrow, one of our favorites, Brant Hansen, is going to be here, giving us a message from the Love Like You Mean It marriage cruise, where he talks about the true role of men as protectors and nurturers within relationships. That’s coming up tomorrow. We hope you’ll join us.

On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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