Father & Son (When You Didn’t Have a Good One): Daniel Nayeri

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Daniel: A lot of the traits that are now in me because of my childhood are traits that I value: the hustle mentality; the ability to work really hard; the ability to withstand pain and discomfort; being comfortable being uncomfortable. These are all things that came to me because of a difficult childhood. One of the biggest challenges for someone in my position is to say, “How do I make my son strong without inflicting”—

Ann: —yes.

Daniel: —"a childhood that requires strength?”

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife App.

Dave: This is FamilyLife Today!

Dave: Alright, we've got one of the most interesting authors.

Ann: He's like the most interesting person on the planet, right?

Dave: [Do] you think [so]? He's got a really cool hat on, too.

Ann: And he's a great storyteller.

Dave: I want to hear you say his name.

Ann: “Daniel” —let me see. I have to look at it.

Dave: There it is.

Ann: “Daniel Na-yur;” “Daniel Nayer.”

Dave: No. I never—

Ann: —no! “Daniel Nayur-ee”

Dave: —I never get names right. That was pretty good, wasn’t it, Daniel?

Daniel: That was a good one. The last one was great.

Dave: Yes. You have got to say it the way you say it, though.

Daniel: “Nigh-yu-ri.”

Dave: Oh, we can't do that. That's impossible. [Laughter]

But your book, Everything Said Is Untrue (A True Story), has been the center of what we've been talking about the last two days. I really didn't think we'd do a Day Three, because you said so much in the last two days. I'm [wondering], “Where else can we go?”

But here's what I want to ask: “As a dad now, coming from the home and the experience that you've had in your life, how do you approach being a dad? [Laughter] How do you embody that position?”

Daniel: Boy, that's a tough question. When my son was about to be born, I was really, really anxious. I can't say I had any really great father-figures except for late in high school. My football coach was sort of the person I think of as a great father-figure in my life.

Dave: Offensive guard? Linebacker?

Daniel: I was outside linebacker.

Dave: There you go!

Daniel: Yes, yes.

Dave: Alright.

Daniel: Not at the level you're used to. [Laughter]

Dave: I don't know. [Laughter] You played in Oklahoma. That's some pretty good football. [Laughter]

Daniel: High school, yes!

I felt barbaric. I didn't really have a sense of how to do it. I had a friend who I was just mentioning it to, and he [said], “Well, yes, I know you don't have a lot of good dads in your life, but you want to be a good dad, right?”

I said, “Well, yes. That’s what I've been telling you this whole time. [Laughter] I want to be a good dad.”

He [said], “Well, guess what? Most of the people who weren't good dads didn't want to be.”

Ann: They didn't even care about it.

Daniel: Right. And it was a “light bulb moment.” I was [realizing], “Oh!”

Dave: That is a light bulb.

Daniel: “You're right!”

Dave: Yes.

Daniel: “He didn't even want to be.” He [my friend said], “So, just want to be a good dad as much as possible.” That was the beginning. That wasn't all of it. Of course, you have to actually work on it.

I think the other question that always pops up in my head is: a lot of the traits that are now in me because of my childhood are traits that I value like the hustle mentality; the ability to work really hard; the ability to withstand pain and discomfort; being comfortable being uncomfortable. These are all things that came to me because of a difficult childhood.

One of the biggest challenges for someone in my position is to say, “How do I make my son strong without inflicting”—

Ann: —yes.

Daniel: —"a childhood that requires strength?”

Dave: Yes.

Daniel: I don't want him to have to have that. I certainly wouldn't just send him through the same meat grinder and tell him, “Come out on the other side.” But I'm not actually—that's a question I think about all the time. He's never going to experience poverty on that level, and he's always going to have his dad who will care for him and stuff like that.

So, I think trying to figure that out has been the challenge of my fatherhood. I tell him I love him, probably too much, too many times a day.

Ann: You can’t say it too often.

Daniel: Yes, if my son's around, my arms are wrapped around his neck. That's something that I'm trying to figure out, because there are times where I remember a kind of reaction that I would want from him. I see him in sports now; he does wrestling or something like that. [Laughter] I’m [thinking], “There's a killer-instinct, and then there’s”—

Dave: —yes.

Daniel: —"being soft or whatever.” —

Dave: —yes.

Daniel: These metaphors that we’ll throw around. And trying to figure out how to build that up without being somebody who's aggressive, or punching down; trying to figure out what exactly—how do I give them those kind of skills? I think that probably every father thinks that way, right? “How do I give him the best part of my childhood without the worst part?”

Ann: Yes.

Daniel: Yes.

Dave: Yes. I mean, working with NFL athletes, they add that as well.

Daniel: Yes.

Dave: Because a lot of them came up through tough times,—

Daniel: —yes.

Dave: —grind. And now, they're wealthy, and they're raising kids in wealth, and they're [thinking], “I don't want to raise them as spoiled,”—

Daniel: —that’s right!

Dave: —"entitled kids.” So, there's that balance of allowing hardship to shape their character.

Daniel: Yes.

Dave: Here's my next question: you didn't see a great model from your dad as a husband, and you're now a husband; how do you approach that?

Daniel: That’s a great question. Well, we dated for nine years before—

A lot of it was for that. A lot of it was spending a lot of time—I met my wife when we were 18 in college, in undergrad.

Dave: Nine years!

Daniel: Yes.

Dave: Wow!

Daniel: We dated for a long time—maybe it was eight. So, for those eight years, I knew I would like to marry this person, but I had none of the toolkit.

Dave: Were you afraid of marriage or not?

Daniel: No.

Dave: No?

Daniel: No, I wanted to be married, but also, I get like—an example would be conflict resolution, a common problem in marriage. My conflict resolution—I described it as—I remember one time we were in an argumentm and she [said], “Well, let's take a second and think about it and just come back to this.”

And I [responded], “What? [Laughter] Like, put a pause? Are you…? No, no, no. We have to solve this!”

Ann: Daniel, this is me, and this is Dave: [Laughter] “Let's just separate.” [Dave]: ‘No!”

Daniel: No, absolutely not! And just not understanding that: “Take 10 minutes. A lot of this is because you need a Snickers bar. [Laughter] So, calm down.”

That wouldn't have occurred to me. I was like, “Let's get in the ring. Let's duke it out (metaphorically, of course; let's duke it out); just have the argument; say everything that comes into our heads, [Laughter] and then, forgive each other afterwards.”

It's [saying], “Hey! No, don't! Have some control over your mouth.”

Ann: See, this was me. This is why I had to write this book that I'm writing. [Laughter]

Dave: Exactly.

Daniel: One phrase that pops into my head a lot is, “I punish people with fire, and she punishes people with ice.” So, she would be hurt in an argument, and it would feel icy.

Ann: She would become cold; pull back.

Daniel: And I would be [thinking], “What?” And when I punish someone, I punish with fire. First of all, you shouldn’t be finding ways to punish your spouse and be right.

Ann: Yes. [Laughter]

Daniel: One, it's not your job; but two, why are you harming the thing that is a part of you? Why are you trying to do that? These are things I heuristically didn't understand until years that we dated.

I remember, we were thinking we wanted to get married, so we went to our church and said, “We'd like to do premarital counseling.” And they [said], “Oh, cool! Are you engaged?”

“No, we're not engaged. We're just dating.” [Laughter]

And the guy [said], “Well, this is usually for people who are engaged.”

We're like, “No, we understand. We understand, but this is like a pre-pre-marital counseling. [Laughter] Why don't we just do that? We just wanted to—give us the questions. Hit us with the questions.”

Dave: “Help us find out if we want to get engaged.”

Daniel: Yes.

Dave: Yes.

Daniel: I thought it was a funny little moment. I didn't realize that that was —I guess it was seen as abnormal. [Laughter]

There's an old story of me in 6th grade, where I wanted to go to the young married couples’ class in our church because, [Laughter] at this point, there were so many—

Ann: —in the 6th grade?

Daniel: Yes, there were so many divorces in my childhood, and so I was terrified that divorce was just going to be a thing for me. So, I'm 12, and I show up to this young married—

Dave: —you really went?

Daniel: —yes, and they were going through— [Laughter]

Ann: —come on!

Daniel: —and they were going through a—

Dave: —"Whose kid is here?” Right?

Daniel: —program. Yes, they were doing this workbook program, and I was sitting there. Like, “Who’s this little kid.?” [Laughter] Now, I look back, and I'm [thinking], “They must have—what must they have thought?”

And the pastor [said], “Okay, well, there's a lot of conversation here that's really not for you. We're not going to have you sit in on the—it was a workbook)—chapters that are about intimacy and things like that. We don't need you for those weeks; but if you'd like to be here for the first week, and a couple of weeks in, then great.”

So, I sat in and watched the little videos where they talked about— [Laughter]

Ann: —I'm telling you, “That's phenomenal.”

Dave: Yes.

Ann: Because it shows the heart of kids: they want more than, maybe, what their parents had.

Daniel: Yes.

Ann: And you were willing to learn it at 12 years old!

Daniel: [Laughter] Yes, that was probably too early; but it was a lot of—

Ann: —but it shows your heart, though.

Daniel: Yes.

Dave: Well, some of our listeners are going to be [saying], “You never explained the title.”

Daniel: Right. [Laughter]

Dave: I mentioned it—

Ann: —yes.

Dave: —in Day One.

Ann: I love this part.

Dave: Everything Said Is Untrue. I know where it comes from, but help our listeners.

Daniel: Sure, yes. A lot of people—I'm aware that it's technically an inaccurate statement right now. There are sad things in this world, and that is true. But it comes from a couple places. The specific phrase comes from Lord of The Rings. There's this part at the end where—the heart of the story is this little Hobbit named Samwise Gamgee, and he's just delightful and naive and heroic and loyal and kind. This horrible tragedy (no spoilers for Lord of The Rings, so I have got to give this to you in a hidden way)— [Laughter]

Ann: —are you a Lord of the Rings guy?

Daniel: —I do—yes, I grew up loving it. Yes, I still love it.

So, there's a moment where Samwise discovers that this thing that was very tragic, that they thought had happened, did not happen. And so, he runs up, and he asks that question in just this childlike naivete that I adore. He says, “Well, is everything sad going to become untrue?”

The answer is, of course, “Yes, in the future tense, everything sad will become untrue.” That used to be the first title of this book, Everything Sad Will Become Untrue. Then, I started to think about it from the perspective, not of Samwise, who's delightful and naive, but from the perspective of this young boy—myself, the narrator of this book—who's in a particularly dark place, but looking past it into the future, and how we know that our experience and our expectation of the future will absolutely change our experience of the present.

So, he starts to claim—I thought that my character would, probably, claim that future tense into the present tense.

Ann: Yes.

Daniel: He'd say, “Everything sad is untrue.”

I have been called onto the carpet by a lot of theologians to actually defend that position. Were I to do that, I would begin with some legalese. I would say, “Let's define all our terms.” Everything can stay “everything.’” We’ll keep everything “everything.”

Sad is just “sad.” I’ll keep it to the highest standard. It doesn't even have to be Everything Tragic Is Untrue. We'll keep it as Everything “mildly” Sad.

Untrue: I'm not going to be one of these slippery people who tries to redefine Truth. We'll keep it capital “T,” Truth.

So, now we just have to redefine is; and in this case, of course, if you want to be practical about it, “is” could be Everything Sad is, at this Moment, Untrue. Okay, that's not accurate; but let's redefine it as Everything Sad May as Well Be Untrue.

This still, grammatically, works, and I still—now, I like it. Now, I think I'll stand by that statement. Everything Sad May As Well Be Untrue, given the timeline we're on.

Ann: Yes.

Daniel: Given that, on a long enough timeline, we're all dead. On the other side of it, looking back, and there's so much more.

Ann: I'm curious. Would you just talk to the listener who is in the middle of that struggle, in the middle of pain, and in the middle of that waiting period?

Daniel: Yes.

Ann: Because you guys have lived that. Your mom has especially felt it, because she was also providing for you guys, as two little kids. How would you encourage them?

Daniel: Goodness. Well, you alluded to it that from 18 to now, I've sort of been a fanboy of Tim Keller. [Laughter] He has a wonderful illustration that I think always applies to this moment, which is about that idea that our expectation of the future changes our present, no matter what kind of present we have.

The way he describes it is: “What if I gave you a job, and you were in a dark room putting a widget into a wodget, and you did that all day, every day? But I told you that, at the end of the year, I'm going to give you 50 billion dollars. But you're going to do this for a whole year.”

“Of course, you, David, at the end of your year, you're going to do the exact same job. I'm going to give you 50 thousand dollars, and I'm telling you, your years are going to be the exact same activity, but a completely different experience.”

Why? This is script right out of a great Keller sermon. The reason, of course, is that you're going to spend your year spending that 50 billion dollars,—

Ann: —yes.

Daniel: —and you can go, “What kind of boat should I have?” [Laughter]

Those days are going to go so fast, and you're going to think about all the different, glorious experiences you're going to have. On the other end—

Dave: —things she would buy for our grandkids.

Daniel: That's right.

Ann: Probably.

Dave: That’s what she would do.

Daniel: And you're going to spend the time thinking about how 50 thousand, after taxes, [Laughter]—

Dave: —right—

Daniel: —on an hourly,—

Dave: —can't live on it.

Daniel: —it's still: “Okay.” And then, “What am I going to do after that? What's going to be my job the next year?” You're going to still be worried because, even though, of course, that's a lot of money in the global sense of the word,—

Dave: —right—

Daniel: —your year is going to be very different.

And of course, there could be a person right next to you who's going to get 50 dollars, and they're going to have just an absolute drudgery of a time, right?

That's really meaningful. It sounds like a little, kind of, I don't know, just an aphorism; but the reality is, I've been in those situations where I have a year where I have something to look forward to, or I have something, and it absolutely changes my present. I think that was what my mother did in that refugee camp, right?

Ann: Yes.

Daniel: We were expecting to go to school, and so we needed to know English so that we could have friends. My friends were waiting for me.

Ann: She was always looking ahead.

Daniel: Yes, but I just needed to know how to talk to them, and I had to keep my grades up, because I had a future. I think those were very different experiences than saying, “Let's just muddle here and wait.”

Ann: —because then hopelessness sinks in—

Daniel: —absolutely.

Ann: —that there is no future.

Daniel: Right.

Ann: And you're saying you're always looking forward to that. Keller talked about that in a sermon.

Daniel: Oh, many sermons, yes. He nailed it on that topic.

Dave: Yes, it might be one of the most important things ever: hope.

Daniel: Yes.

Dave: Think about it. If you can wake up with even a sliver of hope, you can get through the present, because you're dreaming of the future; but if you don't have hope—

Daniel: —yes. The short answer to your question is: I would just send them to a Keller sermon on suffering. [Laughter] Why would I say it?

Ann: You said it really well.

Daniel: Thanks, yes.

Well, no, it was wonderful. He had a lot to say on suffering, I think, and that was very helpful.

Dave: Speaking of Tim Keller, we didn't get to sit under his teaching like you did. Anything that you would think of that you learned?

Daniel: So much! It would be hard for me to even pull out what I learned from my brain. It might be easier to tell you the stuff he didn't teach me. He didn't teach me anything about comic books. [Laughter] So, everything in my brain about comic books is not Tim Keller. Everything else, on some level, I credit him, because he formed a lot of what I understand about the world and faith.

Broadly speaking, I remember going to New York City for college, and quite a lot of people in my church in Oklahoma were very wary of that. There was a certain element of, “Well, you're going to the big city. It’s a dark place.”

Dave: Yes.

Daniel: And that's true. You should make sure that you're not going to get lost in a city.

At the same time, Keller was never afraid of the city. He never walked in this idea of being afraid of the culture at large. He didn't feel that if he read the Village Voice, suddenly, it would infect his faith in some way. He had a quiet confidence that I very much understood and gravitated toward. He understood that what he had to offer—and specifically, of course, the faith that God in Jesus has to offer—what he had to offer was such a better sale than what the city had to offer.

I think there wasn't even a question. He walked with that kind of confidence of knowing, the way that the most competent fighter walks into a space and knows they can defend themselves. I always felt that he was unafraid of the culture; he was unafraid of the city.

He did such a good job of articulating some of the paradoxes of the faith: both the idea of the law and love at the same time, but also about Jesus Who was—he wasn't trying to find a muddy middle. He understood that Jesus was more liberal for the Liberals and more conservative for the Conservatives at the same time, which is a wild and accurate understanding of it, of Jesus's approach.

I loved the way he carried himself. I've met his sons and his family. I love the way he handled himself. I didn't put him in my list of father-figures, because it would be a parasocial thing. It was a big church. I attended for decades, but I didn't get to sit at his knee and listen personally. If I had, he would have been. Certainly from afar, He absolutely was a father-figure to me.

So, the least we can do is put some respect on his name. He did more for me than any apologist of any century. I think history will prove that. So, I don't feel like I have to be much of an argumentative type. I think he was great, and greatness is in short supply.

Dave: Yes.

Ann: I think as we get older, and we've been in ministry a long time, we're looking at how people finish—

Daniel: —yes.

Ann: —because there are a lot of people who have fallen; some of our friends have fallen. And as I look at Tim, it’s like, “Oh, man, he really finished well, too,” and lots of leaders don't finish well.

Daniel: No.

Ann: So, we can add that to it too. Check!

Daniel: That’s it: check.

Ann: He finished well.

Dave: It’s not how you start. It’s how you finish.

Ann: I think, too, as I think about that appeal with the culture, and how Tim addressed that, one of the things that I love is: I remember I gave my life to Jesus at 16 years old—

Daniel: —yes—

Ann: —and reading the Bible and understanding it for the first time. I had this [thought], “Are you kidding me? [Laughter] I get it! This is phenomenal! When they said Good News, this is the best news. It's the best! I want to tell everybody.”

And my parents, even though they weren't believers at that time, gave me freedom. My parents created this home of joy. It was like a magnet. We had fun; we had great food; we had meals. It was that atmosphere of family. So, then you combine that with this great good news of knowing Jesus and what He's done in the call in my life.

I'd go to these parties in the world and the culture, and it felt like nothing.

Daniel: Right.

Ann: “This is the dumbest. It just—what? Why are we doing this?” It felt so empty in comparison to God, His Word, a family.

I think we get so scared, as parents,—

Daniel: —sure.

Ann: —of what our kids are facing, and what they'll become, and what they'll be under; but I'm just going to remind all of us, and as listeners too: our faith in our great God is compelling. He woos our kids in. He's drawing us in. And the power of your family together—the meals that you're eating, the laughter that you have around the table—that is great power as well, and it's a magnet.

I can see that in you. You love to cook.

Daniel: That’s right.

Ann: You love to be around friends. It's that Middle Eastern hospitality that draws everybody in.

Daniel, this has been fun!

Daniel: Thank you! Thank you for having me.

Ann: Thanks.

Daniel: It's a pleasure.

Shelby: What a joy to hear Daniel's story over the last three days. It's amazing to see how God works in lives in ways you can never really imagine, in order to shape stories that highlight Christ's goodness, and in just incredible ways. It's been such a blessing.

I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Daniel Nayeri on FamilyLife Today. He has an incredible story—a true, incredible story—and you can read more about it in Daniel's memoir called Everything Sad is Untrue.

You can get a copy of his memoir by going online right now to FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can find a link to it in our show notes; or feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329 to request your copy. Again, that number is 800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”

We're dedicated at FamilyLife to reaching families all over the country, and consequently, all over the world. One of the things we're trying to do during this month is raise $250,000 in new funds by the end of August. We want to do that because we care about marriages and families.

If you want to be a part of that—if you want to be a part of the ministry and be part of the solution to help reach marriages and families all over the world, I'd love it if you would hop in with us and make a donation. You could do that by simply going to FamilyLifeToday.com to make your donation.

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Again, you can head over to FamilyLifeToday.com to make your donation, or give us a call at 800-358-6329. Again, that number is 800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” Or you can drop us a donation in the mail if you'd like. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.

Now, coming up tomorrow, we have Allen and Jennifer Parr. Allen is a famous YouTuber with over a million subscribers, and they're going to talk about the red flags of unhealthy relationships. It’s provocative, so you don't want to miss that tomorrow.

On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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