Is Your Church Equipped to Provide Help for Marriages? Brad & Marilyn Rhoads

Brad: Grace is atmospheric: it settles the heart; it settles the marriage; it creates a different atmosphere. It is so cool, with our pastor last week; he said, “Thank you; thank you. I’m being nicer to my wife; I’m sending her texts for doing things. She’ll joke back and say, ‘You grace marriage-ing me again?’ [Laughter] ‘You grace marriage-ing me again?’” [Laughter]

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.

Ann: This is FamilyLife—

Dave: —Today.

Dave: We’ve got Brad and Marilyn Rhoads back one more time. Not only are we going to talk about The Grace Marriage, your book, we’re going to talk about Grace Marriage, your ministry. Because what you’re doing needs to be heard about. I don’t know anybody else doing what you’re doing in terms of helping churches help marriages.

Ann: Well, to do that, let’s go back to your story. How long were you guys married? You’re working on your marriage; God’s really revealing to you what grace looks like—not only the grace that He is giving—but now, you’re applying it to your marriage/to your family.

You’re a successful businessman, Brad.

Dave: He’s an attorney.

Ann: —an attorney. Did you have any idea that one day you’re going to be in full-time ministry?

Brad: Zero.

Ann: Zero. [Laughter]

Brad: It never even hit our radar.

Ann: So, what happened? How did that come about?

Brad: We’d worked with youth for about ten years at our church. We were kind of the small group leaders: go on mission trips and pour into youth. And then, as the kids we worked with got older, they came to us and said, “Would you do our premarital counseling instead of our pastors?” We’re like, “Why?” They said, “We want what you have. Show us how you do it.”

Dave: They saw a grace-based marriage.

Brad: We said, “Sure”; and it went well. Then, they sent us another couple. I don’t know why God had given us favor with marriages, but I said, “Let’s start a group; because we can reach, at least, eight couples at a time as opposed to one.” I don’t know why God has given us such favor, but [there was] a two-year waiting list to be in the group. And then, I started getting more crisis pastoral counseling requests; I was an ordained pastor of marriage at our church. This was when the light bulb went on.

We’re a pretty good-sized church—and I saw our church does premarital counseling and crisis counseling—and that’s our marriage ministry.

Dave: That’s it.

Brad: Communal Barna study shows 72 percent of churches have no marriage ministry. Marriage gets almost no attention.

Ann: It’s one of the anchors of our civilization: marriage and family—it’s like what we’re founded on—and we’re not giving it any time or attention?

Brad: I don’t get it; I don’t. I don’t understand, because—children’s ministry: great to be [included] in every church; youth ministry’s great, it’s [included] in every church—marriage ministry is absent. We wonder why we have so much trouble getting any traction with our children and youth. It’s because we’re not building up the marriages in the family. Because the family they grow up in, and the marriage they grow up in, is much more impactful to their spiritual development than the weekly program the church provides.

Marilyn: Before we had children, I counseled with children. It wasn’t the children; it was the parents who needed the help. That was so frustrating—they were coming from such brokenness—you just saw the results of that. I was working with children who were first-time offenders in the court system; there were truancy issues. I was seeing that it’s the families that need the help; it’s not me working individually with this child. It’s the work with the families that needs help.

Brad: As a lawyer, I saw so much family breakdown. When I left the law, the family court judge from Lexington called, and said, “I want you to come watch my courtroom for a day, because I heard you’re doing marriage ministry.” “I don’t need to watch courtroom; I’ve done 22 years [in law].” He said, “No, I want you to come.” I sat there and just observed miserable person after miserable person—and the most miserable people were the kids who weren’t even there—it was almost like God said, “Brad, this is why I’m calling you out of the law. This can and should be stopped, and the church is not doing what it needs to do to stop it.”

Because you can’t just do premarital and say, “Good luck,” with the world we live in. It doesn’t model good marriage; it doesn’t model good rhythms; it doesn’t model intentionality; it doesn’t teach grace. Over time, invariably, two pretty good people end up hating each other and wanting out; it’s unnecessary. Because if we would shepherd and disciple—and give them a discipleship strategy and a discipleship pathway that they’re growing in skills in marriage; that they’re moving toward thriving and not drifting toward crisis—it could change everything. Most of the cases I do in crisis pastoral counseling could have easily been stopped if the right rhythms had been put in five years ago.

Marilyn: We’ve bought into the lie that marriage should just be good without work.

Ann: Exactly. And nothing else is in life.

Marilyn: Nothing else.

Ann: Nothing.

Marilyn: We know we have to work at our talents; we know we have to work at parenting; we know we have to hone our skills in our jobs and everything else we do. But if there’s a problem with us, then our marriage must be broken. That’s crazy!

Brad: We must not just love each other.

Ann: Imagine going into a sport—you never work out; you never practice; you never even learn the rules of the game—that’s exactly what we do in marriage—

Marilyn: —that’s exactly what we—

Ann: —and we think it’ll be great.

Marilyn: That’s right.

Brad: [They’re] sorry and in crisis. [I’ll ask], “Both of you share with me, individually, what you’re specifically investing into your marriage: time, and money, and creative energy wise?” They look at me, like, “What are you talking about?” I said, “So you’re putting nothing into it, and its bankrupt; and you’re surprised.”

It’s the church, stepping forward, and teaching people: “Let marriage be held in honor among all,”—Christ and the church, husband and wife, wedding celebration—this is a big deal, theologically; and it’s a big deal, practically. We’re not going to make any traction in society until we make traction in marriage.

Ann: I have asked Marilyn this: here you are—your husband’s an attorney; you’ve got five kids—he comes home, and I’m sure you guys have been talking about it; but when he says, ‘I’m thinking of getting out of this—

Brad: —“’law practice.’”

Ann: —“’and becoming a full-time missionary,’” basically—

Marilyn: It was so obvious that the Lord was taking us here—

Ann: You knew it.

Marilyn: —before that day; because it was growing so much, and we saw the need. There were so few marriages out there that were worth emulating, and that’s sad. Even in the church, you don’t see magnetic marriages. Just because God had shown us and helped us—like Brad said, “not because of us but because of Him”—kids are inspired by what we have and asking us, “Would you show us?” My encouragement to couples: “[Having] a beautiful marriage is the best thing you can do for marriage to be held in honor and to help the next generation and people around you.”

So, our marriage ministry’s growing at church; we’ve got the law practice and the five kids. He went on a mission trip and already knew the Lord was taking us this direction. He came home from this mission trip; he said, “Marilyn, we’ve got to do this full-time.” I said, “Okay, I know this is what the Lord has for us.”

Brad: And I got scared. I got scared.

Ann: You did?

Brad: Well, I thought—

Dave: Well, yes, because you’re a budget guy. [Laughter] I get it; I get it!

Brad: —"You’ve got a budget guy with five kids. None of them have started college.”

Dave: Yes.

Brad: And you’re thinking, “I’m going to start a brand-new marriage ministry and just leave the law practice completely.” I started thinking, “Am I sacrificing the health of my family for what I want to do? Am I being selfless or selfish?”

Ann: Yes.

Brad: So, I started over-thinking that. I remember I came to Marilyn; and Marilyn’s quote was, “Brad, would you please quit looking back and wasting our energy? You know what God’s called us to do. Go do it!” [Laughter]

I don’t feel like I’ve worked a day since; I love seeing marriages do better. I love seeing churches, who have no marriage ministry, all of a sudden, have a DNA of healthy marriage in their church, which is kind of expected: “You come here: marriage is a big deal.”

Ann: You get so emotional about it.

Brad: Oh, I can foresee a movement that marriage ministry that’s effective is standard operating procedure in our church. The sleeping giant—the church and the marriage space—comes alive and changes the way marriage is done. When people see marriage done differently, it changes the next generations. We have one daughter, who’s married. I asked her, after six months, “How’s life, Madeline?” She said, “Dad, it’s been the best six months of my entire life!” I love—

Dave: Instead of how you guys started.

Brad: Right. She’s never seen anything but dating once a week. So, [she] and Zach date once every week.

Ann: Our kids all do, too.

Brad: They do. They don’t know any different. They just [know], “When you get married, this is what you do,” because—

Dave: —they’ve watched it.

Brad: —you do what you see.

Right now, the church isn’t stepping forward and showing: “This is what you do.” So, everybody’s perpetuating a busy culture, where marriage does not get anything but fatigue leftovers. And we all scratch our heads [over] why it’s not working. The decline of marriage makes all too much sense. You leave a space open; Satan will have a heyday with it, both definitionally and in every other way. I think the hope is salt and light; the church stepping forward.

Marriage is beautiful! It’s amazing. I love being married to Marilyn. I think millions of people are missing out. When they step forward, their fruitfulness in the ministry, their fruitfulness in their job, their life, their energy, their emotional health will all increase as the strength of their marriage increase.

Marilyn: That’s also fuel for loving when you don’t feel like it, when I think about—

Ann: —for grace.

Marilyn: —“This is so much bigger than just our marriage, for me to pursue Brad, for me to love Brad while he’s still a sinner. It’s so much bigger than us.”

Dave: What do you do when you come in and bring grace marriage to a church? What’s it look like?

Brad: God’s given us a wonderful, amazing team, that’s helped us put together seven full years of curriculum that changes, consistently. What we do is—if a church says, “We want a marriage ministry,”—we give them everything they need: promotional schedule, promotional materials, promotional videos; they can white label it from social media graphics to everything; they don’t have to create anything; we’ve created it for them.

And then, we have church specialists who walk alongside them. We realize that two of the barriers of marriage ministry are staff time and church budget. It can be lay-led; and it’s participant paid, because we want people to invest in their marriage. “My marriage is worth a little bit of money, and a little bit of time, on a consistent basis.”

They give that, they see transformation. Churches start realizing that, when we intercept couples at a point of stability, and we get them dating, enjoying one another physically, they see quick change. But if you wait until they’re at a point of crisis, and pour a ton of money into them, most of them end up divorced.

We teach the church a strategy, and we provide them everything they need. There are multiple methodologies, so each church’s marriage ministry is going to look a little different. Some, it’s monthly; some, it’s six weeks in the spring and six weeks in the fall; some, it’s a quarterly model, which I learned through business coaching (and what our church does). We just help every church create that atmosphere of healthy marriage in their church. We have an ongoing platform, so it’s not just a study, and it’s not just a conference, but it’s an ongoing strategy, where you keep people in your ministry.

You would never do a youth ministry—“Hey, why don’t you do youth ministry for six weeks?” “Why don’t you do youth ministry for a year?” No, “You’re in the youth ministry.” So now, we’re creating a culture where: “You’re in the marriage ministry, and you’re on an ongoing growth track.”

Marilyn: And we’ve got a few rhythms that we do every time we get together, whether it’s quarterly [or] monthly:

We talk about gratitude. It’s all about our perspective; so, focusing on the good, the lovely, the praise-worthy, the admirable. That’s one of my favorite things that we do. We take time to stop and reflect on: “What’s going well?” We just so naturally bend toward what’s not going well.

To write all that down—to talk about it; to speak that out loud; to each other is so life-giving to the marriage. We revisit grace over and over [again], because we all need to be reminded of grace.

We also have an “intimacy igniter,” we call it, where you sit and you just talk and just listen about the things that are on your heart. We offer examples of questions if you don’t know what to talk about. But if there’s a pressing issue in your home—a crisis time or a celebratory time, you can just share.

We don’t often take space to just sit and listen to each other. It’s a neutral space. So, if there’s something hard to talk about, it’s a good time to talk about it, because it’s not in the heat of the moment. It’s so much better to address issues outside of the heat of the moment.

And then, we have the [Matthew] 6:21 Challenge: “Where your treasure is, your heart will be also.” “Okay, plan your next—before you meet next time, how many times are you going to date? Are you going to try and get away overnight?’”—like you’re talking about. It’s fun to have those things to look forward to.

Brad: We have them block time off their calendar, commit to spending on their marriage. We sell them on marriage, which it’s not a hard sell, because it’s just true. I feel like, as a lawyer, God’s given me a perfect case nobody can argue with. It’s “present the rest of your life.” [Laughter] That’s what I do.

We have them schedule their time: “You agree that marriage is important?”

“Yes,”

“Okay, let’s go ahead and put it on the schedule.”

Because now, there’s an implementation gap. They’ll go to a good conference; they’ll go and hear good preaching; but they go home and do life just like they’ve always done it. What we do is have them write things down; commit; work together; and hold them accountable to not let life squeeze out marriage.

Ann: I’m just thinking of people listening right now, whose hearts are burning: “This makes sense. This is what we need.” I would add: if you’re feeling that—that nudge, that’s the Holy Spirit. You could take this, as a volunteer, into your church. FamilyLife^® is all about this.

Dave: That’s what we do.

Ann: Yes. What if every listener brought this into their church? It would start changing—not only a marriage; then, it would start changing a family, start changing a community, start changing a region. And now, we’ve got marriages [that] are on the Rock of Jesus: “Whew! Look out!”

Dave: Talk about this: you went from being an attorney, and now, you’re both together, in a ministry together. “How has that affected your marriage?” Because that’s what we do; it’s not always easy.

Brad: It’s been more challenging than we thought. We started doing content videos together. I’m really driven and focused; Marilyn’s bigger on kindness and gentleness. [Laughter] One of our team members said, “When you all do videos, you’re really not that nice.” I’m like, “Whoa! That’s kind of bad!” I came home, told Marilyn, “Elaine said, ‘You’re not that nice.’” She goes, “We are not!” Because I’ve come in there: “We’re going to finish these eight content videos,” you know?

Ann: You guys are brothers! [Laughter]

Brad: I know.

Dave: She’s already like, “You’re not nice either!”

Ann: Short and snappy! I’m like, “I don’t really want to do this with you right now,” right? [Laughter]

Brad: I’m like, “Marilyn did not come in the studio to talk about this. We came in the studio to do this. We can talk about that, but we’re here for a reason.”

Ann: I would say, “That’s fine, but can you do it and say it in a nice way?” [Laughter]

Brad: It’s been a challenge. We’re in a good spot now. I’ve had to be more graceful and just let things play out as they play out, and not be as goal-oriented and driven, like, “We’re going to produce this in this amount of time.” And let her talk to the rest of the team and be nice to everybody. And it’s, “…whenever we finish!” [Laughter]

Dave: You find the same thing, Marilyn?

Marilyn: Yes, it’s so funny. Early on, it was even harder (when we first started), not realizing how hard it was going to be. The guy who works with us on content—we were, literally, working on a communication video and fighting right before it started. He was right there, watching it all. [Laughter]

Ann: I’m going to add, because Marilyn and I talked about this as we walked over to the studio, the spiritual battle over marriages is so great. There’s such an attack on our homes, on our kids, on our marriages. I don’t know why we’re surprised—especially, for ministry—but any marriage. When we start wanting it to be great, and you start taking those steps, don’t be surprised if attacks will happen; don’t you think?

Dave: Yes, and FamilyLife has always had a theme, at our Weekend to Remember^® marriage conferences, that “your spouse is not your enemy.” We went to this conference as an engaged couple, never thinking we’d be here with FamilyLife, years later.

Marilyn: Wow!

Dave: But that was the first time we ever heard that concept. And then, we got married two weeks later. Immediately, I thought she was my enemy! [Laughter] It’s like, “I don’t like you, and you don’t like me.” Literally, our first year was a real struggle.

Ann: We used our words as weapons.

Dave: Yes, and you forget there’s an enemy, and it’s not your spouse.

Marilyn: Yes, that’s right.

Dave: In fact, that enemy would love you to think it’s not him; it’s your spouse. If you’re in a foxhole together, and you’re fighting each other, his battle is done.

Ann: He won.

Dave: Turn together, as warriors together, and say, “There’s the enemy. Let’s fight him together.” But man, he wants to divide marriages.

Ann: And I would add this—because, as many couples, maybe you thought this at the beginning when you struggled: “We’re disqualified. We could never do anything.” When you’re in the midst of that struggle: “God could never use us.”

I think so many couples listening to this—maybe they’ve been divorced; maybe they’re blending, and that’s really hard—God still wants to use you. If your kids are gone—you’re empty nesters, whew! [Those] would be the ones who would champion a marriage ministry in a church, right? Because now, they have a little more time and capacity to be able to bring that passion into pouring into other couples. There are so many opportunities.

Brad: What we’ve seen is, we’ve put together a marriage leadership team of

11 couples. Nobody spends much time on it; but they love marriage, and they love each other. They all have small roles, but together, we have about 100 couples that do the ongoing investment of a church of 800. One of my board members said, “Couples will never be more intentional with their marriages than churches are with their marriage ministries. Unless it’s important enough for you to have a devoted ministry, don’t expect your couples to prioritize it, because a church is that important.”

It is tough, and it can be discouraging. My board [member] always says, “Brad, it’s a hill worth dying on.” He said, “You lose marriage, you lose everything. It’s a battle that everything else depends on.” I would just say, if you’re listening, and your church doesn’t have a devoted marriage ministry, “Please be the impetus to step forward and make sure it occurs.” It doesn’t have to be somebody on staff, but people who aren’t on staff sure can influence those who are on staff.

Ann: Yes. You probably heard some incredible stories. Your story is really encouraging and inspirational! Have you heard other stories of people that this has made a difference in their marriage?

Brad: All the time. It’s amazing the difference you make in a marriage when you get them at a point of stability. We get more testimonies, primarily, because we catch them at a point of stability than a point of crisis.

Ann: Right.

Brad: We get them all the time. A pastor last week said, “Thank you, thank you. I’m being nicer to my wife. I’m sending her texts for doing things. She’ll joke back and say, ‘You grace marriage-ing me again?’ [Laughter] ‘You grace marriage-ing me again?’” [Laughter]

Another one said, “I was always mad at my husband because he worked too late. The first night after our session (or one of the nights after the session), he was working late. I texted him; I said, ‘Can’t wait to see you when you get home.’ He said, ‘Sorry I’m late.’ She [typed] ‘Grace! Can’t wait to see you [Smiley face].’ He said [later], ‘I couldn’t wait to get home.’”

Grace is atmospheric. It settles the heart; it settles the marriage; it creates a different atmosphere. It is so cool. Our pastor once said, “No longer am I taking away from my ministry in my marriage. I’m remaining qualified for it, having a blast with my wife. Thank you, thank you. Please tell everybody.” His entire experience in ministry changed when he went from a busy, tired pastor with a tired wife, to an amazing marriage and leading out of that. It’s because they’re all set.

Ann: That makes it worth it, doesn’t it?

Brad: It sure does. I can’t tell you how much I love what God allows me to do.

Dave: Yes, it is amazing! We found this, really, from year one, when we were struggling—we said this many times here: as we get to Nebraska, to begin our ministry as chaplain for the sports teams there, the first football player I meet says—it’s so ironic [since] we are really not doing well at all; of course, nobody knows that; it’s a secret at this point—he says to me: “Hey, a lot of us are married. Could you and Ann lead a marriage Bible study with the football team?”

Marilyn: Oh, wow!

Dave: I’m thinking, “You have the wrong couple.”

Ann: He told me, and I said, “We don’t even like each other.” [Laughter]

Dave: But what did we say? We said, “Sure! We’d love to!” Because that’s what you say when you’re in ministry. We learned the words of Jesus—we didn’t know it at that time. He says, “If you want to find your life, lose it.”

Brad: Amen.

Dave: We lost it. We gave our life away; our marriage. We literally took the manual from FamilyLife—from the conference we went to, that we really didn’t listen to, because we didn’t think we needed it [Laughter]—and we taught it, not even knowing what’s really in it. Now, we’ve been teaching it almost 40 years.

But we taught it, and we learned a critical listen about marriage: “If you want to save your marriage, bless others. Give your marriage away. Help others.” Because it’s so easy—we look inward; we look at each other. I’m not saying that’s unimportant. That’s part of it: you’ve got to fix what’s broken in your own life; but it’s so crazy to think, “You really want to save your marriage? Look up [to] Jesus. Look out and see the needs and start meeting them, and God will meet your marriage.” I don’t know if we helped those other couples, [but] He saved our marriage. Isn’t that what you found?

Marilyn: Yes, absolutely.

Brad: Yes, we had the same experience. We went to a premarital conference, two days, paid $300. We left after 30 minutes and laughed. [Laughter] We laughed and said, “Isn’t it good they have this for people?” Literally, we thought,—

Dave: —“Who needs this?”

Brad: —“They don’t know how special”—

Ann: —“we are.” That’s so true!

Here’s what I’m wondering: if you’re a listener, and you’ve been tracking with us, what’s God doing in your heart, right now? What would grace look like in your marriage right now? Put your husband or your wife in mind—maybe the things that are bothering you, or the things that just keep cycling back. What would grace look like? Maybe you text them; maybe you write a note to them; maybe, when they come in the door, you apologize. That’s where you started, Marilyn: “I’m really sorry for the way I’ve been treating”—

Brad: —move toward them.

Ann: Move toward them.

Brad: Not away.

Marilyn: That’s right.

Ann: And what did you say? What were your words that you said to Brad?

Marilyn: He says it a little stronger, but I did say, “I don’t need you to have joy, and I’m sorry I’ve put you in the place of God.”

Ann: I said, basically, those same words to Dave. I felt like God convicted me the night of our ten-year anniversary, when He said, “You’ve been trying to find life through your husband. He was never made, or qualified, or meant to meet all of your needs. That’s My job.”

Marilyn: That’s right.

Ann: So, maybe, besides that grace, we go to the Father first—our Father who loves us, and we say, “Father, I need Your grace. It’s already poured out, but I need to receive that and remember that You forgive me. I’ve been failing at this, and You are the One who can meet all of my needs. You’re the One.” That’s the start of a great marriage.

Marilyn: That’s right.

Dave: Amen. Thanks, guys!

Marilyn: Thank you for having us.

Brad: It’s been great.

Ann: It was really fun.

Marilyn: It’s been so fun to be with you.

Brad: Thank you.

Ann: Really fun.

Shelby: I love this conversation over the last three days with Brad and Marilyn. Such strong gospel truth combined with practical ways to strengthen your marriage. I’m Shelby Abbott, and you’ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Brad and Marilyn Rhoads on FamilyLife Today.

Brad and Marilyn have written a book called The Grace Marriage: How the Gospel and Intentionality Transform Your Relationship. You heard a lot about that today. You can get your copy of their book to learn more by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com or clicking on the link in the show notes. Or feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329 to request your copy. Again, that number is 800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”

Right now is your last chance to save 50 percent off on all Weekend to Remember registrations for the fall. Don’t miss out on our biggest sale of the season. The Weekend to Remember registrations, right now, are half price until September 16. Whether your marriage needs a boost, or you just want to grow closer as a couple, now is the time to act. You can visit FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the Weekend to Remember banner right there on the page to learn more. Again, you can head over to FamilyLifeToday.com.

Now, coming up next week, Brittany and Rechab Gray are here to talk about their journey of parenting children with sickle cell disease, and coping with loss, while finding faith. That’s coming up next week. We hope you’ll join us.

On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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