Jesus on the South Side: Kevin “KB” Burgess & Ameen Hudson

Kevin: If the Bible is not the Word of God, and it is simply just a proof text that we are going to to affirm the things that we really want to do because we like this religion, then yes, I think there’s some merit.

Ann: There it is!

Kevin: But if it’s a supernatural book that contains the words of a living being Who is a person Who exists in a triune reality, that is ruling and reigning and wrapping up all creation according to His will; if that God is speaking in a book, then what you hold in front of you is—as I am with my voice right now, He is with His voice in His Word.

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.

This is FamilyLife Today!

Dave: I’ve never started a show this way, but I want to say, “I am Dave, to the 23rd letter, Wilson” [Laughter] on FamilyLife Today. Everybody is thinking, “What is he talking about?” We have “K to the second letter, B, Burgess” and Ameen on the show today.

How cool is it to be able to say, “K to the 2nd letter?” [Laughter] I mean, seriously. Ameen, do you have something like that?

Ameen: No, I don’t.

Dave: Nothing?

Ameen: No.

Kevin: It would get cumbersome real quick, you know what I’m saying? [Laughter] You start tripping over a lot of words. K to the 15^th? Yeah.

Dave: I had to add it up in my head. “What’s a ‘W’? Well, it’s the 23^rd letter.” I couldn’t get it.

Kevin: Well, that’s impressive. I don’t know the alphabet unless I sing it, like [Singing] “a, b, c, d,” and I’ll do the math, and then I’ll get to the number, so I’m impressed.

Dave: Anyway, we’re just really glad to have you guys on FamilyLife Today. You’ve never been here?

Kevin: This is my first time on the show, absolutely.

Dave: Yes? Give us first impressions. What are you thinking?

Kevin: Man, first of all, these folks are the salt of the earth, [Laughter] taking good care of us and just the topics that you all are tackling. We got to spend some time in lunch earlier today talking through where we were going, and also where y’all have been.

Dave: Yes.

Kevin: I am excited, and I’m praying that, by God’s grace, we can add something of substance and edification to this wonderful, wonderful, wonderful institution you have going.

Dave: Oh, you guys will.

Ann: You guys have been friends for a long time.

Kevin and Ameen: Yes.

Ann: You have a podcast. Tell us what you do; tell us about your podcast.

Ameen: Yes, we actually have a podcast called Southside Rabbi, and you can listen to it wherever you listen to podcasts.

Dave: How did you come up with that name?

Ann: Yes, I thought the same thing.

Keith: Okay, so it’s kind of a double entendre. It’s Southside Rabbi  because he and I met each other; we were raised in southside St. Petersburg, Florida. So, it’s kind of an ode to where we’re from, but then, we also use Southside Rabbi because Jesus is our Rabbi. He found us in the south side—

Ameen: —yes, yes—

Kevin: —and so, Jesus is in a sense a southside rabbi to us.

Ameen: Absolutely, yes.

Kevin: So, that’s how we came up with the name.

Ameen: And to add to that, just briefly, because I just—and I’m sorry, brother—I’m just so excited about Who Jesus is.

Kevin: Yes.

Ameen: That Jesus is forever, according to Peter in Acts, the Jesus of Nazareth. And Nazareth, historically, we know, would have been considered the south side. [Laughter]

Ameen: Absolutely, yes.

Kevin: Part of the city that you try to build the highways over, so you don’t have to get off on that exit. [Laughter]

Ameen: What good comes from Nazareth?

Ann: Exactly!

Kevin: What good comes from this place? And Peter makes a point to say that this Jesus, at the right hand of the Father, is still the Savior from the south side.

Dave: Boom!

Kevin: So, I love the heart of God in His care for those who are often overlooked, under -resourced, or forgotten, and that’s what “Southside” also encapsulates.

Dave: Gee whiz, you’re getting into Dangerous Jesus stuff already! [Laughter] Really, we haven’t mentioned it, but your book, Dangerous Jesus, as I read it—isn’t that sort of it? He is dangerous in a really good way.

Kevin: Yes. Yes, indeed, He is. In a lot of ways Jesus is the sum and substance of all that is dangerous, in that He is a threat to anything that would threaten us, and that is expansive, right? He is a threat to our division, He is a threat to our injustice, He is a threat to our shame in that He brings a goodness that overcomes the threat with something so dramatically good that it cannot be denied. That’s Who Jesus u

is.

Dave: Yes.

Kevin: Yet, I’m a rapper, so double entendres is the world I live in. There is a way that you can reimagine Jesus and stand Him up as something that He is not, that becomes an absolute danger in the traditional sense. There is this difference—

Dave: —oh, yes—

Kevin: —of a Christianity of man’s imagination versus the Christianity of Scripture, the Christianity of Christ, which is life to the world. The alternative is death.

Dave: Yes, and when I listen to Southside Rabbi, that’s where you go—

Kevin: —yes.

Ameen: —absolutely.

Dave: —so often, to the beauty of Who Christ is; but I didn’t know your story that you told us at lunch.

Kevin: Yes.

Ann: How they met!

Ameen: Oh, yes, yes.

Dave: So, walk us through that. Our listeners have to hear that.

Ameen: Yes, yes, yes. So, KB and I met when we were in high school. We’re grown men now—

Kevin: —yes, all the way.

Ameen: — but we were kids when we met. I was about 15 years old, and at the time, I was being convicted of my sin, okay? The way that this happened is, my mother bought me a Bible. She took me to a Christian bookstore, bought me a Bible, put my name on it in gold, and I was like, “It’s official!” [Laughter]

Dave: You’re in!

Ameen: It’s official. “I’ve got my own now. A seat in heaven is waiting for me!” So, I felt like having a Bible was a rite of passage as a kid. I saw all of the adults that I knew had a Bible. My grandmother had a Bible. My uncles—

Ann: —and you always went to church?

Ameen: —and I was raised in the church, right?

Dave: Probably a big old Bible, too, right?

Ameen: They had the big Bible.

Kevin: The bigger the Bible, the bigger the faith. [Laughter]

Ameen: The big Bible! You come into the house, and it’s the centerpiece.

Kevin: Yes.

Ameen: I was raised in the church, so as a kid I was always going to the church. My grandmother did the announcements at the church, and my mother took me to church every Sunday, even when I didn’t want to go. When I became a teenager, she stopped forcing me to go to church, so I gladly accepted it and just didn’t go.

But she did, one day out of the blue, on a Saturday morning say, “I’m going to take you to a Christian bookstore and buy you your own Bible.” So, I got a Bible, and I remember when I was excited about it, and I got home, and I opened it. And I didn’t know how, because I don’t know how to navigate the Bible at this time, but I came across the Ten Commandments. When I read them, I said, “I have broken all of these commandments.”

Kevin: Every one of these, and twice on Sunday. [Laughter]

Ameen: I thought, “Oh, shoot! Maybe twice today.”

And so, once I read the Ten Commandments, and I saw that I had broken them, I just started feeling—at this time, I didn’t know that this is what it was, but—conviction about my sin. So, I tried to go back to just living my life as a sinner, because I was; and I could not do it comfortably, because every time I would go to just try to live my life and go back to the sins that I was committing, there was something in the back of my mind and my heart—

Kevin: —kind of a taskmaster.

Ameen: —yes, that was constantly disturbing me.

Kevin: Yes, yes; a tutor. I’m Pauline, baby.  [Laughter]

Ameen: As Paul said, he talks about how the law is a taskmaster—a schoolmaster—to show you that you have broken God’s laws and show you your need for a Savior. So, I was trying to live my life the way that I knew how, just going back and doing what I was doing, and I could not shake the conviction. The conviction got so bad that I said, “I have to do something about this.”

The language that I would use now is, every morning when I woke up, I felt like God was disappointed with me, that He was mad at me; and I used to wake up and just feel it. It makes me think about what it says in the Bible, how it talks about how God’s wrath is abiding on those who are rebelling against Him, and that’s what it felt like.

So, I said, “Okay, what do Christians do? How can I make God happy?” They go to church. They don’t do things like curse and other bad things. [Laughter] So, I just started driving myself to church, because I was thinking, “I want to make God happy. So, I will get up and take myself to church on Sunday.”

Ann: So you’re performing for Him.

Ameen: I’m performing. I’m doing white-knuckle effort.

Kevin: Yes.

Ameen: I don’t know it at the time, but I’m trying to earn my salvation by my own righteousness, which is impossible.

Kevin: Yes, yes.

Ameen: And I felt it. So, I got to church, and I didn’t like it. I didn’t understand what the preacher was talking about. He was up there sweating and yelling at me, [Laughter] and I didn’t know what was going on. Everybody was clapping, and I didn’t know why they were clapping, because he’s yelling and sweating. [Laughter] So, I thought, “I don’t like this. There’s no one here my age. I don’t understand what this guy is talking about, so I’m not coming back here.” Right?

I went home one weekend, and I opened my Bible on a Saturday morning, and I tried to read it. It was like reading hieroglyphics, and I thought, “I don’t understand what this stuff is saying,” (and I had the NLT version, too). [New Living Translation] I closed the Bible, and I said, “This is impossible. No one can do this.” I remember saying that in my brain, and I said, “If there are Christians out there that are doing this, they are faking it, because I have tried with all of my might.”

Kevin: Yes.

Ameen: And in God’s providence, just a few months after that, I met KB at the grocery store. We got this job at this new grocery store, we met each other at orientation. We hit it off. We had everything in common. We were laughing and joking during orientation.

Ann: So, you loved this guy?

Kevin: Yes.

Ameen: Yes, we became friends instantly at the orientation—

Kevin: --yes, yes, yes—

Ameen: —and then, when I worked with him, probably a week or so after that, we worked a whole shift together. It was the same chemistry, and then after that, he told me he was a Christian, and I was shocked.

Ann: How did that go? Was that hard, KB, to even tell him, or was that just a part of who you were at that time?

Kevin: It flowed out of who I was.

Ameen: Yes.

Kevin: That’s always in the back of my mind, too, where I’m clear out the gate. I am always disguised as an evangelist. I’m always disguised as an evangelist, so it was in my mind and my heart. As we were talking, we just connected over sneaker culture, hip hop culture—

Ameen: —yes—

Kevin: —and I brought up the fact that I knew Jesus and [that] Jesus had saved my life.

Ameen: And you were doing Christian music.

Kevin: And I started making Christian music, and I started playing some stuff for Ameen. And then, Ameen just started peppering me with questions. He just started asking me, “Well, what does God feel about this? What does God feel about that?” And we spent every single day together.

Ameen: Yes, we did.

Kevin: Every day. We would walk through Scripture, we would talk about the different ways in which this applies to our lives; and it got to a place where it was clear to me that God was closing the deal. [Laughter] I hate to put it that way, because it’s not a transaction. Ameen and I—

Last night, I got invited to one of my neighbors’ houses, and he is of a different religion. He showed me where he worships his gods. He’s Hindu. We were sitting there talking, and I asked Him, “Do the gods talk back to you?” He kind of paused for a second and said, “No. I am filled with way too much sin. God would never talk to me.”

As soon as I told Ameen the story, he said, “Lay up!”

Dave: Yes!

Kevin: “That’s a fast ball right down the middle!” [Laughter]

Dave: [Laughing] Lay up!

Ameen: A fast ball right down the middle!

Kevin: “You are Mark McGuire on steroids!” [Laughter]

Ameen: Hey, you’re about to hit that thing out of the park!

Kevin: But that’s how it felt.

Dave: Yes.

Kevin: It was the same situation: “This is clearly an alley oop. God is ready to slam this.” I slid him the very album that led me to Jesus. It was an album called Bloody Streets, Volume One. I thought it was about hurting people in the streets, but it was about the blood of Jesus that is extended to everyone, especially those who are in the streets.

Ameen: Yes.

Kevin: It was an album that had eight songs on it. The eighth song was a gospel presentation. I believed in Jesus; it changed my life, and then a year later, I meet this man, and we go through this process of asking questions, very Nicodemus-in-the-night-like.

Ameen: Yes, that is what it was like.

Kevin: Nick at night.

Dave: Nick at night.

Kevin: I gave him the CD, and he went into the same room that I trusted—I just thought about that—the same room I trusted Jesus in.

Ameen: Oh, wow.

Dave: Same room! What do you mean?

Ann: Whoa!

Kevin: He went into that.

Dave: Oh, really?

Ameen: Yes, yes.

Kevin: I had a room at my grandmother’s house, and I listened to the CD in that room.

Dave: Wow.

Kevin: Eight songs—eight songs, the gospel presentation; the rapper led me in a prayer. I trusted Jesus and have been walking with Him ever since. I gave Ameen that CD, he went into that room, closed the door, and I waited out in the kitchen, praying to the Lord, “Lord, make it stick!” [Laughter] “Please!”

Ameen: Oh, my gosh.

Kevin: So, Ameen did the same thing and then, Ameen went home after that, and just to be sure—

Ameen: —I did it again.

Kevin: I gave him the CD. It was on an MP3 player, sorry. And he took it home, listened to it again.

Ameen: We’ve been best friends ever since.

Kevin: Best friends ever since.

Ameen: That was 2006, I think. 2005 or 2006?

Kevin: I got the honor of discipling Ameen, and now, he disciples me.

Ann: So, Ameen, did that blow your mind, this idea of grace?

Ameen: Yes, it did. It also felt like—I always describe it like—in the moment, it felt like a film, because it felt like everything that had happened in my life was leading up to this moment, right? As though this was the zenith. I was thinking, “This is what I’m here for.” That’s what I felt. It’s weird, because at the time, I didn’t know much about God or His sovereignty and His providence, but I did know, at the time, this felt bigger than me, and it felt like, “This is why I am here. It was to get to this moment.”

Kevin: Yes.

Ameen: And also, you know what I was really blown away by? I was blown away by God being able to relate to someone like me in my culture, because I thought that Christians, as we talked about a little bit earlier, looked like Steve Erkel. [Laughter] I didn’t know that Christians can dress in Jordans and be a part of the hip-hop culture. I didn’t know there was Christian hip-hop.

Kevin: Yes.

Ameen: I didn’t know any of that, and I was blown away by the fact that God was very much so present in the culture of the south side of where I grew up. And that’s what made me say: “God cares about us,” in that God relates to us in this way.

Dave: I find it interesting, too—how important was it that you actually liked this guy? [Laughter]

Ameen: Yeah!

Kevin: Yes.

Ameen: Well, God knew!

Dave: Yes. What I was thinking was, so often—we know this; as a preacher, you know this: they’re not going to listen to the message unless they appreciate or like the messenger.

Ameen: True.

Dave: Christians are so often hated [for being] hypocritical or judgmental or whatever. So, they try and share Christ with somebody, and they’re not liked. I’m not saying we bow down to the culture to be liked—

Ameen: —sure, sure. Yes.

Kevin: —right, of course.

Dave: —but he’s laughing, you enjoy this guy, you guys connected at that orientation.

Kevin: Yes, yes.

Dave: There’s already something you like about him. Then, when he hands you something, you think, “I’m interested in it.” If you didn’t like this dude, and he says, “I want to lead you to Jesus,” you think, “I’m not interested in your Jesus,” right?

Ameen: Right.

Ann: Or if he’s hypocritical.

Kevin: Or if he’s hypocritical.

Ameen: Or if he treated me like a project, which I feel like Christians do in evangelism, too.

Ann: Ohhh.

Dave: Yes.

Ameen: That they meet a person and just say, “Oh, you’re just a gospel project. You’re not really a human being, so I don’t really care about you”—

Kevin: —and hear about your story—

Ameen: —"as a person or what your story, what you’re interested in. I’m only feigning to care about those things to get you to a gospel presentation.”

Dave: Right.

Ameen: That doesn’t work either.

Kevin: Yes, agreed.

Ameen: I think that loving your neighbor means that you have to care about them, and their life and their humanity, and that authenticity comes out when you’re actually talking to someone and forming a relationship with them.

Kevin: Yes, agreed.

Dave: Yes.

Kevin: Agreed, yes.

Ameen: I didn’t feel like I was just a project to preach the gospel at. I felt like I was a human being that another human being loved and cared for and was trying to teach.

Kevin: Yes, absolutely.

Dave: How has this relationship developed into Southside Rabbi and everything else you’re doing?

Kevin: As long as I can remember, we have been pretty serious about our Father’s business. I will say we trusted Jesus when we were young. I wish I was younger. There are wounds that I certainly would have avoided if I would have trusted Jesus when I was eight.

Dave: Yes, right.

Kevin: But we, from the inception of our friendship, became very serious about the Kingdom of God. We weren’t clubbing or partying. I’m not particularly trying to come at folks that do that. I’m just saying that just was not on our mind as teenagers.

Ann: You had bigger business.

Ameen: Yes, yes.

Kevin: We had bigger business. We had “funner” business. [Laughter]

Ameen: Yes, that’s true. Very true.

Kevin: What we did was, we continued to keep this rhythm; and this rhythm stayed the rhythm probably until we were 24 or 25 years old. It started to look different once we got married and started having kids and had to have jobs and stuff. You cannot just be sharing the gospel ‘til 3:00 a.m.! [Laughter] I have to do other stuff.

But anyway, we would be very, very vocal about our faith, and I cannot agree with you more. The gospel does not need your help being hard.

Dave: Yes.

Ameen: Yes, it’s true.

Kevin: So, adding your sharpness to it is not helping anyone.

Dave: Yes, yes.

Kevin: It might make you feel better, may even stroke your ego, but it is not helping people to believe. But we were very vocal about our witness. We weren’t trained. We ended up going to Bible college and stuff like that, but initially, I just had a witness. “God saved me. It’s possible. Look. You read about Lazarus. I can show you Lazarus right now in a 16-year-old black man from south side St. Petersburg. [Laughter] I am Lazarus!” And we went very, very vocal about that.

Ameen: Yes.

Kevin: God also had to get ahold of relationships that we had with our parents, because what I would find is that we weren’t necessarily thinking about how we might honor our parents along with being serious about evangelizing the world. So, we made, also, our relationship with our parents a location for God’s effect on our lives.

Dave: Really?

Kevin: So, I cannot be out here talking about how great Jesus is if I disrespect my mom. So, we wanted our families to look at us and say, “They have been changed,” lest the change is not real.

Ameen: Yes.

Dave: Yes. So, you were thinking that in high school?

Kevin: We were thinking about that in high school. Absolutely.

Dave: Man, that’s maturity.

Ann: That’s deep for a 16-year-old.

Kevin: Absolutely. And then, we studied Scripture, so we spent a lot of time diving into the Word. That led us through a few traditions theologically, some that I will not name, so anyway. . .

Ann: What would it have been like if you guys hadn’t had each other?

Ameen: Man, it would have been different.

Kevin: I think that would have been hard. I can’t imagine.

Dave: You guys are bold. You’re loud.

Kevin: Wow.

Ann: You’re like Dangerous Jesus.

Dave: I don’t mean volume. I mean, your life is loud, in your face. I don’t know you behind the scenes, just what I’ve seen, but there’s a “Dangerous Jesus” that’s dangerous in you, which is really attractive. We had a quarterback come to the Lions, years ago, that was like you guys. He was bold, confident!

Kevin: Yes.

Dave: And in one season—our listeners have heard this, we baptized 27 players.

Ameen: Wow!

Dave: That’s a revival in an NFL locker room.

Kevin: That is a revival.

Ameen: Yes, it is.

Dave: And it’s because he was bold. He brought a Bible as big as this table [big thump], plopped it down and said, “This is who I am. This is . . .” and he was an evangelist. You guys remind me of Jon Kitna.

Kevin: Wow. I love it.

Ameen: Wow. Papa Jon.

Dave: So, where’s that boldness come from?

Kevin: I would say, “I believe it, man. I believe it.”

Ameen: Yes.

Kevin: The fact of the matter is ministry in the West is rubbing shoulders with business. These are full operations that have staff and 401k’s; and whenever sponsorship begins to get introduced to the table, you have considerations you didn’t have before. First, you’re just thinking about: “Man, what can we do that is the most effective to reach people?” Then you think, “What can I do to keep the lights on and people paid?” Okay?

Dave: Right, yes.

Kevin: And that’s not all bad.

Dave: Right, right.

Kevin: I want to make sure that people in my organization have jobs and healthcare, you know?

Dave: Yes.

Kevin: So, I get the conflict, but I think that I need regular calibration, and by God’s grace, He has surrounded me with good men and women, many of them older than I am. I’ve been able to be on their coattails to navigate this world. What I pull from regularly is, I need escapes from all of the show, all of the lights, the cameras; and I need to get away, and I need to re-evaluate where I stand. Do I believe?

And as I continue to go back—I’m sure you all know Sadie Robertson Huff. She preached at Passion, and I got to hear her message. I had never heard a full Sadie sermon before. The question that she posed was: “How do I know that God is real?” because that was a question she was asked. She gave a very simple answer that she had pulled from another speaker, Louie. She was talking to Louie Giglio.

Dave: Yes.

Kevin: And Louie  said, “I know that God is real because of the Bible,” which for people who have these kind of debates online, they would say, “Well, that’s oddly circular.”

Dave: Yes, exactly.

Kevin: “You tell us God is real, and then you also go to the Bible to know that God is real. This is like a circle.”

Ameen: A circular argument.

Kevin: But it’s circular if it isn’t true, okay? If the Bible is not the Word of God, and it is simply just a proof text that we are going to to affirm the things that we really want to do because we like this religion, then, yes, I think there’s some merit. But it it’s a supernatural book—

Ann: —there it is.

Kevin: —that contains the words of a living being Who is a person, Who exists in a triune reality that is ruling and reigning and wrapping up all creation according to His will—if that God is speaking in a Book, then what you hold in front of you is, as I am with my voice right now. You know it’s me—

Ann: —preach!

Kevin: —because it’s my voice.

Dave: Right.

Kevin: He is with His voice in His Word. And this is the emphasis that she made in this message around [the fact] that the Bible can be trusted, it is to be trusted, and in it, you will find the testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ, where you find life.

Ann: Life.

Kevin: I am constantly needing, I’ll be honest—I’ll say this to you all; I don’t know if I’ve said this on the podcast—I had a moment in the last couple years where I was experiencing some success that I’d never seen before, and it made me, for the first time in almost 11 years of doing this, I got off stage one time, and I missed it. I missed the applause. I’d never felt that before, and it scared me.

I took that to—there are a couple pastors in my life, great therapists, and my wife. I confessed it to my brothers. And we decided that the most courageous thing for me to do was not to push through it, but to stop and slow down. I took almost six months off the road just to recalibrate.

All that to say, I want to be certain that I believe, and as I continue to revisit the voice of God and see God’s work in saving and rescuing the lost, I am reminded what I am doing and why I am doing it, and I don’t know how you could be on that and not be bold.

Dave: We’re Dave and Ann Wilson, and you’ve been listening to FamilyLife Today.

Ann: We’ve been talking with KB and Ameen Hudson, and KB has written a book called Dangerous Jesus: Why the Only Thing More Risky Than Getting Jesus Right is Getting Jesus Wrong. You can get a copy at FamilyLifeToday.com.

You might not know this about FamilyLife, but we’re donor-supported. That means that conversations like today’s get into people’s homes and cars because of financial partners who believe in reaching others with God’s plan for families.

Dave: Right now, when you partner financially with FamilyLife to help more conversations like today’s get into more homes, we want to send you as our thanks a copy of Sissy Goff’s book, The Worry-Free Parent. It sounds like a good book, doesn’t it? The Worry-Free Parent: Living in Confidence So Your Kids Can, Too.

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Ann: We’re Ann and Dave Wilson, and we’ll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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Ann: Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.

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