No Fear in Death: Dennis & Barbara Rainey

Ann: Hey, I want to take just a second to let you know how important you are to us. In fact, we couldn’t do this without your prayer support, without your financial support. We need you.

Dave: You are our partners. FamilyLife and our ministry [would] not exist without donors and listeners who say, “I don’t want to just be a spectator. I want to play. I want to be a partner with FamilyLife, prayerfully.” That means you’re praying for us; but I tell you what, I don’t if you understand this, but we need your financial support as well.

This is a listener-supported ministry. We actually have a goal right now, in the month of August, to raise $250,000, which is a lot of money.

Ann: I know. It sounds like a lot, doesn’t it? But we want you to partner with us to make a difference in marriages and families with the gospel.

Dave: So, let’s jump in together and make a mark. You can do that. Just go to FamilyLifeToday.com and make a donation there. Because you’re making a mark, we’re going to give you a pen—

Ann: —yes!

Dave: —that makes a mark on paper. [Laughter] You get the connection. It’s a FamilyLife limited-edition pen. If you give a donation today or tomorrow, or anytime, you become our partner, and we can change the world together.

Dennis: We need to be thinking back, “When’s the last time we talked to a person about their eternal destiny?”

Dave: Right.

Dennis: Because everybody’s got one. The Bible teaches there are two: heaven and hell. All eternity depends upon who we choose to give us life.

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.

This is FamilyLife Today!

Dave: We’ve got some older people in the studio today, [Laughter] but they’re not old.

Barbara: We’re not old!

Dennis: No.

Ann: We have never opened—

Dennis: —that’s an accurate statement. [Laughter]

Dave: Actually, they are on both sides of the table. It isn’t like we’re looking at [people] older, much older than us. But we’ve got Dennis and Barbara back—

Ann: —our friends.

Dave: —Rainey.

Dennis: We were. [Laughter]

Dave: Yes. That just ended about 30 seconds ago.

Ann: Yes, yes. [Laughter]

Dave: But if you haven’t been listening the past couple of days, those have been rich, deep conversations about how to grow older but not become old. The key word there is grow.

We want to keep this conversation going. Again, I’m not going to review everything, but one of the biggest things you said in the last couple of days is “keep growing and keep becoming a disciple.”

Never stop learning, right? Live on purpose. Surround yourself with some younger people that you are pouring into that keep you young. Surround yourself with older people that you are doing life with, right?

Dennis: Right.

Dave: Today, let’s talk about where we’re headed; let’s talk about the future; let’s talk about heaven.

Ann: Not many people talk about heaven.

Barbara: That’s what I was going to say: how many conversations have you had recently about heaven?

Ann: Why don’t we talk about heaven? What do you think?

Barbara: I think [it’s] because we’re afraid of death, and that’s how we get there. I think we avoid it because it’s unpleasant to think about what we might have to go through. We are pain avoidant at all costs, most of us.

Dave: Yes.

Barbara: That has some pain associated with it. But I’ll tell you a story about a conversation Dennis and I had. A few years ago, we were in Colorado visiting our kids. We went for a walk one night, just the two of us. At some point while we were out walking, somehow the conversation turned to heaven. I don’t remember, to this day, how we got there. I have no idea; maybe the Spirit of God led us to talk about it, but I remember asking Dennis, “Do you think about heaven very much?”

He said, “Well, not really.”

I said, “When you think about it, what do you think?” I can’t remember what he said, and I said, “You know. I’ve been thinking about it lately, and here’s what I think.” I’m sure this was inspired by some verse in Psalms. There’s the verse where God said He made His wonders to be remembered. The concept is [that] God wants us to remember what He’s done. There’s a lot about remembering in Scripture.

So, I said, “I’ve been thinking about heaven, and I wonder if, when we get to heaven—because there’s no time; time is only for earth, there’s not time in heaven—might we be able to see some of the things that God has done, that we’ve read about in Scripture; might we be able to see them real time?”

Ann: Oh, Barbara!

Dave: Wouldn’t that be fascinating?

Ann: I always talk about this.

Barbara: Do you? I thought I was the only one. That’s so great.

Ann: Don’t you want to see it all?

Barbara: Yes!

Ann: I want to see it all.

Barbara: Why would God not want us to see the Red Sea parting—

Ann: —yes!

Barbara: —one of the greatest things He’s done, that we’ve all read about?

Ann: Yes!

Barbara: Just imagine, why wouldn’t He want us to see the real thing and then praise Him afterwards, because now we know what it was really like?

Ann: Surely, we will all get to see it, whether we go back or—we watch movies today; there’s probably something a lot better.

Barbara: I think there are movies, too.

Ann: Me, too.

Barbara: I think there [will be] instant replay or movies or some combination of all of the above. Nothing is too hard for God.

Ann: Right.

Barbara: Right?

Ann: Don’t you want to see it all? I want to see every bit of it.

Barbara: I would love to see it all. I want to meet everybody.

Ann: Me, too.

Barbara: I want to hear their stories because I do think that God has made His wonders to be remembered. He wants us to worship Him for all that He has done for us and for everyone else. We all rejoice when we talk to someone who has had something great that God has done, and we celebrate that with one another.

I think heaven is going to be this ongoing celebration of what God has done in our lives and what He’s done for other people. I think we will be able to see all these things.

That started us talking, and we just kept talking that night, as we walked, about “what ifs?”

Ann: Yes.

Barbara: Then, a couple of months ago, I believe it was (or maybe it was back in the fall), we had friends over for dinner. Somehow, after dinner, we started talking about heaven, and the same thing happened. I shared with them about movie theaters and instant replays [Laughter] and seeing some of this. They kind of looked at me funny. Then they thought, “Well, I suppose that’s possible.” We just started talking again more about heaven.

The reason I’m telling you this is because I think we need to be talking about it more. I think we imagine—like for instance, if you are going on a trip to some place you’ve never been, you get travel journals, you talk to people who have been there, you read what you can read about it, because you want to know where you are going so you can anticipate it.

Well, why wouldn’t we do the same for heaven? I think it’s great for our faith to talk about what’s waiting for us. One of the things we have done recently—I haven’t finished reading it—is, Dennis pulled out Randy Alcorn’s book on heaven, which is like a textbook.

Dave: Oh, yes, it is.

Ann: Yes, but it’s good.

Barbara: It’s not quick reading, but it’s very good. He read the whole thing. Every morning, he would say, “Listen to this, what I’ve just read.” He loved it, so now I’ve started reading it again.

Ann: I need to read that again. Take us there, Dennis. What are you learning? What’s intriguing you?

Dennis: Randy Alcorn was talking about how the gospel doesn’t just redeem sinners and give them new bodies, but there is going to be a new earth and a new heaven.

Ann: Yes!

Barbara: A new creation.

Dave: Wow!

Ann: I can’t wait to see that!

Barbara: I know, right?

Dennis: There may not be three primary colors; there may be three billion primary colors. [Laughter] Sound that we hear—

Barbara: —will be so much better.

Dennis: —a fraction of real sound and beauty. Beauty is one of the greatest apologetics for the existence of God.

Ann: Yes.

Dennis: Barbara has taught me that. I think we’re going to see things so beautiful in heaven that it is going to be—

Ann: —we will bow.

Barbara: Yes, we will.

Dennis: “What is there to expect and to explore today?” Does that mean that is all going to happen? I can’t point to a chapter and verse in the Bible where it is; but my point is, if God loves us—and He is love, and He says He is, and He says He does—then He has prepared a place for us that where He is, we may be also. [John 14:3, Paraphrased] He said, “Eye hath not seen nor ear hath heard—beauty, sound—all of what God has created for those who know Jesus Christ and have placed their faith in Him.” [1 Corinthians 2:9, Paraphrased]

It's not so much just that the gospel saves us from hell, but it gets us into an entrance of something so grand and so wonderful—

Barbara: —another thing, speaking of that, is that I think, often, “What must Adam and Eve have been like before they sinned?”

Ann: Yes, before the fall.

Barbara: Before the fall? When you think about our abilities, and [how] different ones have different exceptional abilities. There are a lot of people that have to wear glasses like we do now, but there are some people who have exceptional eyesight.

Twenty/twenty is what we consider normal and perfect eyesight, but what do you think our eyesight really will be? We think about hearing in a certain way. What do you think our hearing really will be? Then we watch these exceptional athletes who can jump so high off the floor and most of us can’t jump six inches, but what if we’re all like that?

Ann: —and brain capacity.

Barbara: —and brain capacity, yes. They say we only use a small percentage of our brain. I think even that leads us to worship, because I think our bodies are going to be so much better than we can possibly imagine because of what we lost in the fall. If we think about what we lost, then the resurrected body is going to be so much better.

It’s another reason that looking forward to heaven is an exciting prospect; not a dull, boring, “Oh, I don’t want to go there.” I think there is so much to look forward to.

Dave: Now, how does that motivate you to grow older?

Dennis: My mentor, teacher, and professor at Dallas Seminary, Howard Hendricks, said—and it was said of him at his memorial service after he died (with his boots still on, by the way) having taught more than 13 thousand students at Dallas [Theological] Seminary—he said: “The day your past is more exciting than the future is the day you start to die.”

The rearview mirror is good to look at in and glance at occasionally, but eyes transfixed on where you’ve been, the regrets, the mistakes, the errors, etcetera—

Barbara: —you are going nowhere when you’re looking backwards, but if you are looking forward to heaven and to what God has waiting for us—

Ann: —yes.

Dave: Yes, I have often thought in my Christian walk, if all my stories of God’s miracles in my life or sharing Christ with a neighbor or a stranger are all five years ago—

Barbara: —yes, all past tense—

Dave: —or even a year ago, what am I doing?

Barbara: I know.

Ann: Yes.

Barbara: Exactly.

Dave: They need to be fresh, which means I haven’t quit.

Barbara: Right.

Dave: I’m not apathetic. I’m thinking, “I’m going.” I’ve got my eyes open, and I’m asking, “God, use me,” and He will!

Barbara: He will.

Dave: If we are willing to say, “Use me. Here I am; send me,” He’ll send you.

Barbara: Absolutely.

Dave: And you’ll have a fresh story today or yesterday, rather than 10 years ago.

Dennis: I started thinking about going to heaven, and I thought, “If we were going on a vacation, what would you do?” You would look for some travel guides. You’d call a travel agent who had been there.”

We went to Italy as a result of leading FamilyLife for a number of years. [We] finally got away, so I called a woman who had been there 20 times. We had all this travel experience that we went to. If you are going to go to heaven, wouldn’t you want to be reading about what heaven is, and what we’ll do in heaven?

Ann: I told my dad this same thing! I said, “Dad, I don’t know a better planner for vacations than you.” He’d sit down; he’d have everything laid out, maps,—

Barbara: —mapped out.

Ann: —what we can do. He had it all calculated. I said, “You’re such a good planner. You couldn’t wait for the next vacation. Don’t you want to know about heaven? There is going to be nothing that compares to heaven that you’ve done. The Bible talks about it. There are books written about it.” But he was scared.

Barbara: That’s the thing.

Ann: He said, “If I start talking about it, I feel like, maybe, I’ll be there too soon,” that fear part.

Barbara: I think the fear is real.

Ann: Yes.

Barbara: But I think the opposite is true. I think if we talk about it, it makes us excited about going.

Ann: Yes.

Barbara: It gives life to our todays. If you have anticipation for the future and hope for the future, you are going to be more alive today.

Ann: Yes. I remember talking to a lady in a nursing home. She was well into her 90’s; she couldn’t get out of bed. She told me—I was sitting beside her bed, and she said: “When I woke up this morning, I took a breath, and I said, ‘I’m still here. God must have something for me today.’”

I thought, “Oh boy, I need that attitude.”

Barbara: Yes, isn’t that great?

Ann: “Oh, I’m still here. He must have a purpose for me today.”

Barbara: I love that.

Ann: Me, too.

Barbara: I love that.

Dennis: When Billy Graham died, I went to his memorial service, and the program had some words about heaven. Billy Graham said, “Don’t mourn for me and where I am, because I’m going to be breathing celestial air.” [Laughter] Bill Bright said the same thing; [he was] the founder of Campus Crusade for Christ and Cru.

I think we need to be talking more about heaven, and I think we need to go near people who have knowledge, like Randy Alcorn, of a book that’s like a travel guide about going to heaven.

One guy that we ran across, who had some great words about heaven, [is] Dallas Willard. He was an author, professor, and thought leader on the West Coast. When he was two, his mother died. Her final words on her death bed to her husband, Dallas Willard’s dad, were these: “Keep eternity before the children.”

Ann: Whoa!

Barbara: Isn’t that amazing?

Ann: Yes!

Barbara: When I first read that, I thought, “My lost words as a mom would have been, ‘Make sure they know I love them,’ and ‘Take care of them.’” I would have never thought to say that, but isn’t that amazing? “Keep eternity in front of the children.”

Ann: I would have never thought of that.

Dennis: Listen to what Dallas Willard said near the end of his life—he said this about heaven: “Your eternal destiny is not cosmic retirement. It is to be a part of a tremendously creative project under unimaginably splendid leadership on an inconceivably vast scale with an ever-increasing cycle of fruitfulness and enjoyment. This is the prophetic vision, which eye hath not seen nor ear hath heard.”

Dave: Wow!

Barbara: Isn’t that great?

Ann: Yes.

Dennis: If you start talking about that, it makes living life now even all that much more important that we make deposits in heaven, where rust, where moths can’t destroy. [Matthew 6:19, Paraphrased] We’re taking people with us to heaven.

Jim Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family, said, “My goal in life is to share Christ with as many people as possible and take as many with me to heaven as I possibly can.” That’s pretty crystal clear. [Laughter]

We need to be thinking back, “When’s the last time we talked to a person about their eternal destiny?” because everybody’s got one.

Dave: Right.

Barbara: Yes.

Dennis: The Bible teaches there are two: heaven and hell. All of eternity depends upon who we choose to give us life. Jesus Christ, He’s the Savior; He came to redeem us. He died for our sins to satisfy a righteous God who can’t let us in in our current, sinful state.

Dave: I know one of the privileges, actually, of being a pastor and doing funerals—

Dennis: —oh, yes—

Dave: —is, it keeps heaven right in your face, whether it’s an older person or a younger one, it doesn’t matter.

Barbara: Yes.

Dave: You get the privilege of doing a wedding, which is the beginning (and usually younger [people]). Then you walk up, and you have to deliver words to a family and friends who have just lost a loved one. You get in your car, and you drive home, and you’re reminded: “Today matters. How I live today matters,” because we’re all going there. It’s not a matter of if, it’s when; so, I want to live today full out, because when I go there it [will be] glorious; it [will be] incredible.

Ann: It’s interesting, too, because we’ve gone to a lot of weddings, and we’ll say, “That was great,” but when you’ve gone to the funeral of someone who has impacted lives for eternity, those are the ones you are talking about on the way home.

We’ve had many of those discussions of person after person who stood up testifying, “This man changed my life,” “This woman led me to Christ,” (or taught me or mentored me). We’ve come home in the car and said, “We want to do that! We want to be that, instead of just growing old and living for ourselves.”

Dennis: Yes; right. 

Dave: I’ve done a few funerals. I usually try to encourage the family to do an open mic, saying, “I’m going to give you a moment. I can lead it. We’ll keep it brief, but I’d love to have people stand.” And you don’t even have to do a mic; just say some words.

I’ve done a few where nobody said a word. There was nothing to say.

Dennis: No impact.

Barbara: That’s sobering, isn’t it?

Dave: There was no impact. I’ve done others where you have to stop it after 20 minutes, saying, “Okay, we can’t just keep going. This has been amazing.” Even if I didn’t know the guy or the gal, they were just somebody that I was doing the funeral for, and they’re a stranger, [I walked] out thinking, “That’s a life of impact. I don’t know who they were, but they literally changed people for the Kingdom.” 

Ann: Okay, you’ve got the person listening who is saying, “But do we really know if we can go to heaven? Do we really know?”

Dennis: The metaphor that Jesus used is: “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If any hears my voice and bids me to come in to him, I will come in with him and sup with him and have fellowship with him.” [Revelation 3:20, Paraphrased]

I think people are listening right now who have heard Christ knock at the door, but they didn’t do anything. They paused; they got distracted; they thought there was a life somewhere else, better, that they could live than this life that Christ has.

I would say [to] just take Him at His word and say, “Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner. I’m opening the door and inviting You to come into my messy life, and take my mess and make it Your life, purposeful, meaningful, all the way to the finish line. May I be used by You to take a lot of people to heaven with me.”

Dave: Yes, that’s the goal.

I’ll finish with this. I heard this quote, I’ll bet, over 20 years ago. I don’t know who Hunter S. Thompson is, but I’ll bet you’ve heard this quote. He said, “Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: ‘Wow! What a Ride!’”

Dennis: Really?

Dave: That’s the way to end it.

Barbara: That’s cool. I’ve never heard that.

Ann: You haven’t? Isn’t it great?

Barbara: I like that.

Dennis: I’ve heard that one.

Barbara: That is great.

Dave: I heard it years ago, and I thought, “That’s the goal.” To the last breath—Bill Bright, to the last breath: Billy Graham.

Dennis: Yes.

Dave: May our kids and our great grandkids say about Nani and Poppi, or whatever they call you guys, right? “They ran to the very end.”

Barbara: That’s what I want to hear.

Ann: Me, too.

Dennis: When I attended Billy Graham’s funeral—I’ve only had this happen one time in my life, and I’ve been to a lot of funerals like you have—

Dave: —I can imagine.

Dennis: —I actually collect the programs and save them and summarize on the outside of the program.

Dave: You brought them to the pheasant hunt.

Dennis: I did; I showed the guys a few of those.

But at the end of some incredible stories of the grace Billy Graham gave his daughter, who was divorced twice and how she was so ashamed, but he was standing at the top of the driveway with his arms out like this when she came home. He was waiting on her. What a picture of the love of God and the grace of God!

After [hearing] all these stories, and his coffin was made by prisoners in a prison in Louisiana—oak, as I recall—his coffin was put on these rollers, and they rolled it out of the tent there in Charlotte where we were meeting. They pushed it across the road and up a sidewalk, going up to where he was going to be laid.

I still regret to this day that I didn’t do what I wanted to do which was clap; to stand and give a standing ovation to the man who did it.

Dave: That’s how you do it.

Dennis: He wasn’t perfect. I heard him say some clumsy things near the end of his life, you know? It happens to all of us; but he did it; he ran the race all the way to the finish line.

I was with another friend—Kimmons was his name. I leaned over to him, and I said, “I feel like standing and applauding while they are rolling this thing along.” It was total silence, though, in awe of God, I believe, ultimately, but also a life well-lived.

Dave: Yes.

Ann: I’ll tell you where they were clapping, when he entered into the gates of heaven—

Barbara: —of heaven, yes—

Ann: —and the people who he had led to Christ were standing there. I bet they gave him a standing ovation.

Dennis: I have a feeling you are right. I hadn’t thought of that, but that’s good.

Barbara: Yes.

Dave: Thank you.

Ann: We love you guys. Thank you so much.

Dennis: We love you, too.

Barbara: We really do.

Ann: [You are] our heroes and our mentors, and we’re watching. [Laughter]

Dave: We are following. That’s what we’re doing.

Dennis: Yes.

Ann: Wasn’t it fun to be with the Raineys today?

Dave: It was awesome. I’m inspired—

Ann: —me, too.

Dave: —just hearing stories of how God worked in our Founder and former President, Dennis, and Barbara and what they are doing now. I tell you what, every time I’m around them—they’re our mentors—

Ann: —yes—

Dave: —I’m fired up spiritually.

Ann: That’s what I was thinking, too. I thought, “These guys have mentored us from close and afar for years.” I don’t know about some of you as a listener: do you have a mentor? We’re hoping that this program could help mentor you, but also that you would find somebody from afar, or somebody close, that could really pour life and inspiration into you.

Dave: One of the amazing things that mentors do is they help you to, [as] Psalm 34 [says], “Taste and see that the Lord is good.” I’ve felt that way with Dennis and Barbara.

Ann: Me, too.

Dave: I’ll tell you what, if you jump in and become a partner financially with us, you can help others taste and see that the Lord is good by sharing this program with your neighbors.

Shelby: I’m Shelby Abbott, and you’ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Dennis and Barbara Rainey on FamilyLife Today.

As Dave and Ann were talking there at the end, the easiest way to partner with us is simply by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com to make your donation, or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329 to make your donation. Again, that number is “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” Or feel free to drop us a donation in the mail, if you’d like. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.

Now, coming up next week, Daniel Nayeri is with us to talk about his memoir, Everything Sad is Untrue. It’s the story of him growing up [through] his childhood in Iran, and then escaping to America, and how God used that to shape his life. That’s coming up next week. We hope you will join us.

On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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