Understanding and Practicing Grace in Marriage: Brad & Marilyn Rhoads

Marilynn: We’re in a child-centered culture. We now have phones at our fingertips, and we can be in contact with everyone, 24/7. What’s the casualty? It’s marriage. Being intentional, and taking time, we miss kids’ events to go on a date night. It’s okay for our kids to not feel like they’re at the center of everything. It’s actually good for them.

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.

Dave: This is FamilyLife Today.

Dave: Okay, we’re starting Day Two, with Dave and Ann Wilson, twenty years ago. [Laughter] I feel like I’m looking across the table at our marriage. I don’t know how old you guys are, but you’re younger than we are; we’re empty nesters now—you’ve still got kids at home.

Ann: I think that this is your long-lost brother [Laughter] (younger brother)—

Dave: —he’s got too much hair to be my brother.

Ann: —who is very similar to you in every way. Marilynn and I—man, we have gone through this with our husbands, who love sports, and we are all learning how to give each other grace and how to love each other unconditionally.

You guys, yesterday was incredible with you as you took us on your journey of—

Dave: —by the way, this is Brad and Marilynn Rhoads. We haven’t even said—

Ann: —did we not say that? [Laughter]

Dave: Yes, “Is that who we are?”—yes. [Laughter]

Ann: We’re just hanging out!

Dave: We’re just having such fun, even off mic.

The Rhoads wrote The Grace Marriage. If you missed yesterday, go back and listen to it, because you’re going to hear where they started. You are in a totally different place now. How many years has it been?

Brad: Twenty-eight years.

Ann: Five kids?

Dave: Yes, you don’t just write about grace marriage; you, literally, are living it.

I’m telling you: when I asked you yesterday, Marilynn: “How do you sustain that?” Because so many wives, and even husbands, have said: “I want to give him grace,” “I want to give her grace, [but] it doesn’t last two days, because he keeps letting me down (or she keeps). It’s like: ‘I give up!’”

You said, “No, you can keep doing it,” right?

Marilynn: That’s right. The verse in Galatians [6:9] says [paraphrase], “Never tire of doing good for you will reap a harvest.” It may be in this lifetime; it might be in the next; it could be [that] you’re watching children see you love with grace. You might be that person, who is in a 20-year stretch of not feeling loved; but you’re loved by Christ. He’s the greatest lover of our soul.

Brad: You get to choose your hard. You can choose your hard. It is hard giving grace.

Marilynn: Yes, it is.

Brad: It’s harder, living angry. It’s hard, living in a state of offense, living mad all the time. I had a couple in my office once who said:

“What you’re saying is hard.”

“With all due respect, what you all are doing looks harder. It’s a better place for the heart when my heart is at peace; I’m at rest; I can enjoy life when I’m focusing on grace. When I feel offended that people aren’t doing for me what they should do for me—aren’t giving me the attention I deserve, I’m not in a state of peace; I’m not in a state of grace; I’m not in a state of rest. I feel chaotic; I feel frustrated; I feel stressed.

It is good for us; it is good for our souls; it’s good for our marriage. That’s why Jesus said “light burden,” “easy yolk,” “rested souls.” “Sabbath rest of Christ”—there’s the beautiful heart state, in Jesus, that cannot be found in hoping others will behave toward you like you want them to.”

Dave: I’d just love to hear—because what you just articulated, I’ve heard you say before—when you came to understand that through your mentor, Doug—am I right? Something he said to you really put you on a journey?

Brad: Yes, there’s a lot he said to me. He said that God told him to save me 25 years of trouble, because he saw a striving believer, putting his hope in becoming a better believer.

Dave: Is this an older man? How did you know him?

Brad: It’s an interesting story how I got to know him. I had a business issue in the law practice. Somebody said, “The most gifted businessman I know in the Christian world is Doug Hignell.” He agreed to give me 30 minutes of his time. He said, “Brad, you’re just a big self-improvement project.” He called me a moral narcissist. [Laughter]

Dave: Really?

Brad: He said, “You’re hope is in your perception of your performance, not in the grace of Jesus.” He said, “If you feel you’re doing good, you’re at peace. If you feel you’re not, you’re not.”

He said, “What I’m looking for is you to feel good because you’re loved by God, delighted in Him; you’re an adopted son of the King, the Creator of the universe. You live in confidence; you live in joy; you live in peace and happiness for that reason, not because you feel good about you.” I resisted him, and then, all of a sudden, it’s like I almost heard God say, “Brad, you’re not okay, and it’s okay.”

Ann: Brad, you’re talking about this is the point where you’re so complacent, even spiritually?

Brad: Actually, no; it was once I had a big change in our marriage after one year, I really started loving Marilynn much more radically. We went on a date every week.

Fast-forward, I was still more of on a performance track. Our marriage was good—

Ann: —but you’re building your career.

Brad: Yes, but I’m giving Marilynn attention. Our marriage is solid, but I really didn’t have a revelation of what Christ was as it relates to experiencing it and living it out. I was like a lot of believers, just trying to do the right things: have a good quiet time, pray, “Make sure you…”; “You need to do this…” “You need to love the orphan,” “You need to love the widow.” I’m always just trying to be this—

Dave: —more striving.

Brad: Oh, exactly! He basically—Psalm 46:10—told me: “Cease striving and know that He is Lord.” And live in the Sabbath rest of Christ and work from a state of rest. And then, have it that, when people are around you, you don’t stress; you bring peace. They are drawn to you because of Christ in you, the hope of glory. They’re not just impressed with you. He told me, “Brad, with all due respect, nobody would want your life.” [Laughter] He said, “Live a life worthy of emulation, not just a life of everybody looks to you and goes, ‘Wow!’” He literally changed the way I did life.

Dave: Really?

Ann: Did you see a difference, Marilynn?

Marilynn: Oh, it was huge! It was huge.

Ann: What did it look like?

Marilynn: I’m not as extreme as Brad. [Laughter] I don’t live as extremely, so I didn’t really realize to the extent I was living in a performance-based walk with the Lord as well, until I watched him dramatically change. It changed the atmosphere in our home, not just with how he viewed himself, but with me and with the kids. You can’t give something you don’t understand. If you don’t understand grace, it’s hard to offer grace. It really changed the way he loved us, as a family, because we just naturally give and take love based on how we perform—we don’t want to say that—but it’s true.

Brad: I want to make sure that people understand what grace is not. Grace is not a failure to address issues. Marilynn addresses issues with me quite a bit. [Laughter] Grace is not tolerating destructive, narcissistic, controlling behaviors.

What grace is: “I love you. I chose you as my spouse, and I love you because I choose to love you, just like God does us.” It really simplified marriage for us. My job is to love Marilynn.

Dave: How did you get out of that performance-based marriage? Because I noticed your second chapter, where you take that grace-idea and say, “Okay, let’s go right there.” You mentioned it. You were performance based, and so were we; and most couples are and still are. When you hear “grace based,” it’s like, “Sounds good, but how do I actually not want my spouse to meet my needs and perform?”

Ann: Yes, how do you not let my emotions rule? In what I’m feeling, in my anger and my disappointment, how do I not let that rule our home?

Brad: We have a concept in our curriculum called “Red Light on the Dash.” If I see Marilynn struggling, and she comes at me hard about something, or her voice becomes a little high, and [I] feel the tension, that’s just like a red light on the dash of my car:—

Dave: —“something’s wrong.”

Brad: —“Something's wrong; it needs attention.”

Dave: Usually, I just keep driving. [Laughter] “Why would we stop? [Laughter] It’s probably a faulty light! It can’t be anything wrong.”

Brad: What I do now is think: “Oh! Something’s going on with Marilynn, and Marilynn needs my help.” Instead of taking offense at the manifestation of the struggle, I realize I can be a part of the answer.

Ann: Instead of saying, “Now what’s wrong?”

Brad: Yes. “Pity the man who falls and has no one to help him up.” We all fall, but in marriage—like the last two weeks; Marilynn has helped me up. Fortunately, I’m in a good spot right now. I’m glad the interview wasn’t last week. [Laughter]

But there’ve been other times where health issues, and the kids, and stress get the best of Marilynn. I can either be part of the problem or part of the answer. If I want to be part of the answer, [I] pursue her, make her feel special; make her [feel] delighted in; do things for her; jump in; help more; and say, “Hey, look, I’m going to help you up.”

It’s having that rescue mentality, not the offense mentality; not: “Oh, I wish you handled life better, so it would be more pleasant for me,”—but no! “Christ loved me and laid down His life for me, despite my struggles. When you struggle, I’ve been called to love you like Christ loved me.”

Marilynn: A rescue versus an offense mentality really brings life to the problem, because you can live on mission. I often think of the verse [John 10:10]: “I came to give you life, life to the fullest.” So, you can have full life, even in this moment, where Brad’s acting a little offensive to you. The last couple of weeks, Brad’s a little quicker witted. There have been times I’ve said, “Why don’t we go on a sarcasm fast?” [Laughter] Because it just——it flows naturally.

It’s really funny; it really is funny, but it’s not. “Even in laughter, the heart may ache” [Proverbs 14:13], you know? [Laughter]

Brad: Don’t quench the giftedness. [Laughter]

Dave: Sarcasm’s a gift! [Laughter]

Brad: Offense mentality is when the focus is taking offense; I’m living offended: "I’m not getting enough attention,” “I don’t like the way you talk to me,” “I don’t like this…” It’s living in a state of offense. When you live in a state of offense, your spouse can feel: “You just don’t like me.”

Ann: Yes.

Brad: “You don’t really want to be around me, and I can just feel it.” When people have that offense mentality, it really hamstrings the marriage.

Marilynn: So, we still went out—we go on dates every week. That’s something that some of our mentors told us is so important. Outside of our relationship with Christ, it’s the number-one best thing we do for our marriage, spend time together. It keeps us on the same page.

We went on a date, and I just kept trying to pursue his heart, and hang out with him, and talk about sports; the new coach at UK, Coach Pope. [Laughter]

Brad:  But then you took me to a three-hour musical.

Marilynn: I did; I did not know it was going to be terrible. [Laughter] It was really our knock-out.

Dave: Sounds like you really enjoyed that, Brad. [Laughter]

Brad: At the hour and forty-minute mark, they finished, and I thought, “I made it.” And then, it didn’t [end].

Marilynn: So, you do those things, and you move toward, even when you don’t feel like it. You act right, and the feelings will follow.

Ann: Yes.

Marilyn: They do. You don’t let, like you said, emotions rule the day.

Ann: What about grace in crisis? Talk about that.

Marilynn: Yes, we’ve gone through a few spells—

Brad: —three or four—

Marilynn: —with kids. [Laughter] It’s really hard to watch your children struggle. A lot of things hit at once sometimes. And this was our oldest daughter, who had a grand mal seizure. I thought she was dying in my arms.

Ann: How old was she?

Marilynn: She was in fifth grade. We had a newborn at the time, and another was really struggling in school, learning that she had learning issues in first grade.

I was a wreck. We were in ministry, and I had nothing to give. [Emotion in voice] Praise God, we got grace at that point. And then, instead of telling me: “Marilynn, you need to read your Bible. You need to trust the Lord more. You need to be more careful with your words,” he just loved me. If he had said all these things to me, they would have been true, and they would have buried me. I was already drowning.

Every week, we would go on a date, and I cried every single week, because I had my game face on for the kids. And then, I would get in the car, and I would just start sobbing. That wasn’t a pretty year. That was in crisis. He just moved toward me that whole year; he would just come in from work and try to help.

About a year in, the Lord lifted the clouds. I thanked him, and said, “If you…it would have buried me, but the Lord used you to help draw me out of this pit.”

Ann: Because you had nothing left to give him.

Marilynn: —nothing; zero.

Brad: Unless you get grace, crisis will kill your marriage; because there are going to be points where all of us have nothing to give. I had a stretch similar, but different; Marilynn was there for me the same way.

I remember the phone call, specifically, when the clouds lifted. She called and said, “Hey, Brad! I’m happy.” [Laughter]

Marilynn: I said, “I’m happy today.”

Brad: I’m like, “What?!” She says, “I’m happy.” She said—she cried and said, “I forgot what happy felt like. [Emotion in voice] I don’t even remember the last time.” She thanked me, and said, “Thank you for just loving me and not telling me all I needed to do to get myself out of it.”

If I hadn’t understood grace, I would have thought, “Of course, you’re struggling. You don’t have a Sabbath; you’re not in the Word consistently; and you’re not exercising, which helps your brain. [Laughter] Your self-sabotaging.”

Ann: Or “You’re being selfish,” and. “You’re giving nothing to me.”

Brad: The Lord helped me: “Brad, just [do] whatever Marilynn needs.” Marilynn—she went for a run one time, and when she came back from a run, she said, “I just need to take our kids for a month to my parents’ lake house. I can’t handle it. I just can’t handle life.” Marilynn is a very gifted mentor, so people are drawn to her. She’s getting all these calls, and she’s still helpful; but she just can’t do it anymore.

Literally, I’m like, “You’re just going to leave for a month?” But then, it hit me: “Brad, whatever Marilynn needs.” So, I said, “If that’s what you think is helpful, you go. I’ll come up on Thursday nights, go back to work on Monday mornings. It will be all good,’” back to the rescue mentality. "Don’t tell her what she needs. Just love her.”

Marilynn: The family was all I could do. I just wanted to get away with the kids and not have any pull, because I just didn’t have the capacity.

Dave: It’s such a beautiful picture; again, it’s grace; it’s—

Marilynn: —the gospel.

Dave: —the picture of Jesus with us. I can see it.

Another theme in your book is intentionality. Help us understand what that looks like.

Marilynn: I mentioned dating. Life takes over! We’re in a child-centered culture; we now have phones at our fingertips, and we can work 24/7; we can be in contact with everyone, 24/7. What’s the casualty? It’s marriage; being intentional and taking time. We miss kids’ events to go on a date night. It’s okay for our kids to not feel like they’re at the center of everything. It’s actually good for them.

Ann: And when you have five kids, that is definitely going to happen. [Laughter]

Marilynn: Yes, yes; and our kids know our marriage is important. One of the best ways we can love our kids is by having a good marriage. We watch so many couples sacrifice their marriage on the altar of being a good parent.

Ann: Yes!

Marilyn: One of the best things you can do for your kids is have a great marriage.

Brad: I do crisis pastoral counseling. Everyone who comes in misses that intentionality piece. I haven’t had one come in yet and say, “We talk every day. We go on a date once a week. And we don’t really know what happened. We’re just kind of off the rails.”

What happened is this slow drift. Life takes over; you’re disconnected; contention sets in. Tons of marriage research is out there, and the conclusion is: “If you spend a lot of time together, your marriage goes well. If you don’t, it doesn’t.”

Marriage declines and crashes on auto-pilot. When you’re [saying], “We’re going to intentionally communicate better. We’re going to intentionally date more. We’re going to intentionally enjoy each other more, physically. We’re going to intentionally do fun together,” marriage grows that way. It’s just helping people: “Let marriage be held in honor among all.” [Hebrews 13:4] People say marriage is their most important horizontal relationship, but then, they will hardly put a dollar into it. They won’t put time into it. They wonder why it doesn’t work.

That was our problem: when we first got married, we just thought it would just work. I mean, “We’re crazy about each other! How’s it not going to work?” Well, our first fight was on our wedding day, [Laughter] in all seriousness. When we try to help people, we give them a structure to work on their marriage so that their marriage takes priority. I think it was Keller who said, “If anything comes ahead of your marriage, other than Jesus, your marriage will slowly die.” That’s what I’ve observed.

Dave: One of the things I’d love to hear you talk about is grace. You have a chapter called “Grace and Criticism.” It sounds like you don’t critique or criticize one another anymore. That had been a real struggle in our marriage.

Ann: Because I was helping Dave—

Marilynn: —that’s right.

Ann: —with my criticism. I was good at it, Marilynn. [Laughter]

Marilynn: We can argue this: “I’m being their helpmate. If I share with [him],”—

Ann: —yes!

Dave: —exactly!

Marilynn: —“it’ll make him a better man.”

Brad: I told her she wishes I’d come with a remote control.

Dave: Exactly! They’re pushing it all the time. There’s a button on there called “change.” [Laughter] “Change.” Som how do you spin that? Because I don’t hear a lot of criticism between you now; but I’m guessing there was.

Ann: Although, you’ve talked about healthy [speech], like speaking truth in love; you’ve talked about that. What did you do with that critical mind and heart?

Marilynn: One grid that I try and do [is], if there’s something that I want to talk to Brad about, I don’t immediately, when I’m doing well—there are times I immediately do, and then, he gets to extend me grace—but I try to pray about it and not talk about it, and just keep praying about it. If it stays with me for a few days after I’ve prayed about it and prayed about it and prayed about it, my heart’s going to be in a better place to talk to him about it. Then, I know it’s something we might need to talk about.

Also, we both will think about this: “Is this an extenuating circumstance, or is this a habit?” Because life throws a lot of extenuating circumstances at us. Like in the last couple of weeks, it was an extenuating circumstance. I knew it was. So, the response of mine needs to be a rescue mentality; but there are times where there’s a pattern of behavior you do want to address.

But so often, we criticize things that don’t matter; things that aren’t hills to die on; or things that we don’t need to address to make our relationship better. We let the little things go! I was watching an older woman—this couple had a beautiful marriage! And when he passed away, I went up to her at the funeral. I said, “What advice would you give to someone? Your marriage was beautiful!” She said, “Don’t make a big deal of the little things.” I’m like, “That is a power-packed sentence.”

Ann: So big!

Marilynn: Because the little things feel really big sometimes.

Ann: So big, yes.

Brad: On the flip side, I saw an older couple. He said, “Well, last night, we were eating at Wendy’s^®.” [His wife corrected,] “We ate at McDonalds^®.” He couldn’t get two sentences out without getting corrected.

Dave: Yes.

Brad: I’m thinking, “Dude, you just need to give up and shut up, because you’re not going to get much”—

Ann: It doesn’t matter!

Marilynn: Yes.

Ann: Yes, that’s good.

Dave: I think it is good –habits vs. situations. Yesterday, when we were walking, Ann said, “You know, we’ve been short lately.” We both knew—we’re on a run right now, ministry-wise. It’s a long sprint. It’s not a marathon; we’ve been sprinting! And you can’t, you know?

Marilyn: Yes.

Dave: I think we were saying, “This is where we are right now. This isn’t a habit. It could become one if we’re not careful, but if it becomes one, it’s going to be the blinking red light. Right now, it’s like, ‘No, we just need to weather through this season of our life.’” It’s our fault! We’re the ones who said “yes” to too many things.

Ann: We also know, in three weeks, we’re going to be on—

Dave: —on a beach.

Ann: —a beach in Mexico, just the two of us.

Dave: —looking at a sunset. It’s like we’re shooting for that goal.

Ann: It’s like we’re on a marathon, but right up ahead is that finish line to this season—

Marilynn: —"There is a finish line.”

Ann: —yes, and we can take a breath.

Marilynn: That’s a huge piece!

Dave: That’s a Sabbath.

Ann: Having things planned together, as couples,—

Ann: —to look forward to.

Marilynn: —to look forward to on a regular basis.

Dave: —whether it’s a date night, like you said, or do you guys also have a yearly thing?

Marilynn: We try to get away once a quarter, overnight, just to have an overnight together; but we try to take a trip once a year.

Ann: Yes; us, too.

Marilynn: It can be expensive.

Dave: Oh, yes.

Marilynn: But early in marriage, we traded with another family babysitting; so, we didn’t have to pay for a babysitter. We brewed a pot of coffee, and we’d go down to the river. So, you can date inexpensively; but knowing you’re going to go on a date—those things help you weather the storms.

Ann: Yes.

Brad: And as the budget man, I kind of realized—

Dave: Hey! We are brothers. [Laughter]

Brad: —big time! I’m a big time budget man.

Dave: We are brothers.

Brad: Marilynn is like, “If you have it, you have it to spend it on me.”

Ann: I am good at spending more money.

Brad: Marilynn is, too. Marilynn’s gifted. Marilynn’s gifted. She saves us money by getting us so many good deals all of the time. [Laughter]

Dave: Yes, all of the time. [Laughter] Somehow, the money still goes out, and it’s saving us.

Marilynn: How does that work?

Ann: It’s because we’re such givers. We’re good givers; and God blesses us.

Brad: That’s right! Marilynn’s a great giver. It’s like she is good at keeping it away from us.

Dave: There’s a point you’re trying to make. [Laughter] What was it?

Brad: It’s investing. It’s like when I go on a date with Marilynn—when I’m on a trip with Marilynn—I’m investing in one of the most important things in my life.

Ann: That’s good!

Brad: It’s not an expense.

One time, in looking at Grace Marriage, somebody said, “Well, that’s expensive.” I said, “Well, you pay more for that in mulch.” [Laughter] It’s like, “You put”—

Dave: —that puts it in perspective.

Brad: —“You put money toward what is important.” We tell people: “Allocate money toward your relationship”—

Ann: —yes!

Brad: —"because the best way to lose 50 percent of your portfolio is just getting divorced.”

Ann: I would add this, too: if you feel like, “We don’t have the money. We don’t have the means to be able to vacation, or to take a trip,” I would encourage you to pray. We’ve always been in ministry; we’ve never made much money. But it’s amazing how God will provide these little pockets of money or place to stay. He’s been so faithful, because this matters to God, too.

Marilyn: Yes!

Brad: The same here: just things we would never be able to do that the Lord’s opened up.

Ann: Yes, right.

Brad: And it’s not about spending a lot of money; it’s about spending time together. When we first got married, we didn’t have anything. We would just trade babysitting, brew a pot of coffee, go sit by the river for three hours and just talk. Our total cost was about 47 cents, [Laughter] but it was rich.

Ann: And worth it.

Brad: It was rich and worth it. There’s nothing preventing closeness other than a lack of prioritization and intentionality.

Shelby: We’re going to hear more from Dave Wilson, here in just a second for a few practical tips on how to make intentionality happen; but first, I’m Shelby Abbott, and you’ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Brad and Marilynn Rhoads on FamilyLife Today. Brad and Marilynn have written a book called The Grace Marriage: How the Gospel and Intentionality Transform Your Relationship. You can get your copy, right now, by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com or clicking on the link in the show notes. Or feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329 to request your copy. Again, that number is 800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”

Okay, if you’ve been to a Weekend to Remember^® marriage getaway before, and you would call yourself an alumni, I have a challenge for you. We want you to join us again for a refreshed Weekend to Remember marriage getaway experience. With new speakers and updated sessions, now is the perfect time to revisit and strengthen your marriage. You can register by September 16 to enjoy 50 percent off your registration. You can find a location that suits you, right now, at FamilyLifeToday.com. Just click on the Weekend to Remember banner on the page. Again, that’s FamilyLifeToday.com.

Alright, here are a few practical [ideas] from Dave Wilson on how to make intentionality happen in your marriage.

Dave: If you’re doing marriage in community, you’ve got other marriages that you’re doing life with. If you’re not, I’m telling you right now: “Step One is f[to] ind a couple or two who are peers.”

Marilyn: Yes.

Dave: And then, you can share your kids. “Hey, we’re going to go out; [would you watch our kids?] We’ll watch your kids; you go out.” That’s another way to do life when you can’t afford it. We did that.

Marilynn: That’s right.

Dave: You just say, “This is important. We both agree. We’ll watch your kids tonight; you go out.”

Brad: Amen.

Shelby: Now, coming up tomorrow, Brad and Marilynn Rhoads are back again. They want you to consider the role of marriage ministries in churches and how to prioritize investing in marriages within your own community. That’s coming up tomorrow. We hope you’ll join us.

On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We’ll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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