Parenting with Hope: Melissa Kruger

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Parenting with Hope

Guest:Melissa Kruger

From the series:Parenting With Hope: Raising Teens for Christ in a Secular Age (Day 1 of 2)

Air date:December 5, 2024

Ann: Dave, listen to this.

Dave: All right, here we go. You are always reading stuff out loud to me.

Ann: Yeah, but you’re going to love it because this is from a listener.

Dave: Okay.

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Dave: I like it so far.

Ann: “Life is so messy. This podcast is also messy. An episode can be a deep dive into someone’s pain and anguish, or it can be a hysterical episode with lots of joking. Love that there is always something I can apply. I listened to the one episode, and they talked about praying over our children daily, and I started right away.” That’s from a listener from FamilyLife Today. Isn’t that kind of great?

Dave: That’s awesome. I mean, it really is but maybe next time just text it to me.

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Melissa: I hope my kids remember God’s word being a comfort in their life, an encouragement in their life, a hopeful thing in their life. It shouldn’t just be the law. This is actually how you’re made to work. This is how you flourish. That’s really different than, “Here’s the rule so you don’t embarrass the family.”

Ann: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave: And I’m Dave Wilson and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

So I’m going to throw a phrase at you. I want you to come back with one word.

Ann: Oh, no, I don’t like it when you do this.

Dave: Parenting teenagers.

Ann: Fun.

Dave: Fun.

Ann: Fun.

Dave: That’s your word.

Ann: Yeah. Okay. I’m going to say, what would your word be?

Dave: Fun.

Ann: But my second word would be fearful.

Dave: Fun and fearful.

Ann: Yeah. I think that as parents, especially in the culture today, there are a lot of things that we worry about, we think about, we ponder, and there’s fear involved in that.

Dave: Yeah. Well, we’re going to talk about today. We’ve got Melissa Kruger.

Melissa: I like the teen years.

Ann: Me too!

Melissa: I’m kind of like you.

Ann: They’re fun.

Melissa: I really like the teen years.

Ann: Me too.

Dave: Yeah, we did too. I mean, a lot of parents, even before our kids were teenagers, were like, “Oh boy, wait till you,” and we loved it. We really did.

Ann: It’s really fun getting to know your teens, their thoughts, their ideas.

Melissa: Yes, that’s how I felt. I was like all those years of: “Brush your teeth,” “Tie your shoes,” whatever you’re trying to—

Ann: Eat your lunch.

Melissa: Yes, and then suddenly they can do all these things and you’re actually going to have conversations. And I was like, “Oh, I like talking to you.”

Ann: You’re fascinating.

Melissa: Yes, rather than I feel like in the young years, there’s just a lot of mundane plotting that’s needed and it’s so good.

Ann: And we’ll say too, there’s some really annoying things as well with teenagers. We have to say that.

Melissa: Yes, yes.

Ann: But we’re kind of on the other end looking in, which we can say it’s really fun. Some of you are in the midst of that, and you’re like, “But is it fun?”

Melissa: Yes, and the transition, I think it sneaks up on you because they were so sweet and cuddly at nine, and then at eleven you’re like, “Wow! That was an attitude that just walked in the door.” So as a parent, you’re a little bit like, “Oh, you were just wanting to hold my hand and cuddle with me and now you don’t like me.”

Ann: Melissa, yes! I said this. One of our boys was so affectionate, “Mom, please just lay in bed for a little while and just snuggle up with me.” And then it felt like the next day it was like, “What are you doing? Get out of here.” I just walked out and cried, “Oh.”

Melissa: Yes, yes. My son started when I would kiss his cheek, started wiping it off, and I was like, “Okay.” So yeah, you have to put offense to the side, like personal offense aside, because if you take it to heart too much, it would really offend you. But then I just realized, “Oh, it’s just developmental.” Some of this is just developmental.

Ann: Exactly.

Melissa: One day they’ll want to hug you again.

Ann: My friends and I, we would say, “Don’t take it personally. Don’t take it personally.”

Dave: Now how old are your kids? You and Mike?

Melissa: Yes, 24, 21 and getting ready to turn 18.

Dave: You’re sad.

Melissa: I know.

Ann: And you just had your daughter get married.

Melissa: Yes. So that’s true; I added one. And let me say that’s a fun way to get an extra kid. Just let him get married.

Ann: Yes.

Dave: You don’t have to birth him.

Melissa: So yeah, his parents did a wonderful job raising him. So now I get to just enjoy him, and he has been such a great addition, which I’m very thankful for. I know that’s not always the case, so I’m really thankful.

Ann: Why this book? And as you talk about Raising Teens for Christ in a Secular Age, I think every listener hears that like, “What’s the book? I want to get that.”

Dave: Parenting with Hope.

Ann: Parenting With Hope.

Melissa: Yeah. I think when I had little kids, what I can remember hearing was kind of what you were saying: “Oh, little kids, little problems; big kids, big problems.” And when you’re dealing with being thrown up on and exhausted and you haven’t slept in a month, that sounds like, do I even…

Ann: It’s worse than this?

Melissa: Yes. It sounds so terrible. And there is some truth to it when you’re dealing with a teen who’s dealing with real heartache about something. Maybe he’s doing things that are harming themselves. I mean, there are real difficulties in the teen years, but I do think it can still be a hopeful season. What I always just like to say to a younger mom is every season has really good things and every season has really hard things. And so it’s more just embracing what is good in the season and praying through what’s hard. But you’re going to do that with your 2-year-old too, so start doing it here because that’s going to be your foundation for doing it in the teen years.

But I was a high school teacher, so I taught high school math, so I was everybody’s favorite subject. So I realized, one thing I realized was I really had to somehow win these kids over before they would actually learn from me. So I taught 150; I taught at a large public school. I had 150 kids trying to teach algebra one and algebra two. And what I realized was they did care. They wanted adult interaction, but they wanted to know I cared about them as a person before they wanted what I was selling, which was algebra two to them. And they’re like, “Why do we need this?”

But once they understood I actually cared about them as a person, it was amazing how that made them so much more receptive to what I was trying to teach them.

Ann: It’s the old mantra: rules without relationship equal rebellion. You’re saying it’s the same—

Melissa: Oh, that’s good. I haven’t heard that. That’s good.

Dave: It’s in our parenting book.

Ann: I think it’s Josh McDowell, isn’t it?

Dave: Well, he is definitely the one who said it.

Melissa: Bring that back; that’s good.

Ann: Yeah, rules without relationship equal rebellion.

Melissa: Yes.

Ann: But as a teacher, you found the same thing.

Melissa: Yes, and I was really fortunate. I got to test some theories on other people’s children before I got my own. You do start to see, because people will say every child is different. Every child is different, but I would say certain practices work well with large majority of children.

Dave: Like what?

Melissa: You would see some teachers whose, every class was out of control; didn’t matter which kids were in there. You’d see some teachers who seemed to maintain control no matter what kids she taught. When it comes to high school, it’s pretty clear. I am like you have to have, having structure really matters for a classroom environment. Being firm really matters. Having clear guidelines, but also being warm. And so I talk about this some in the book are different parenting styles: authoritarian versus authoritative versus permissive versus absentee.

Well, those are actually teaching styles. I learned that in my education classes. So those categories were how we were taught to teach in a lot of ways. And so I was like, “Oh, that’s really helpful information, and I could apply it to my parenting.” But I realized a lot of parents weren’t ed majors, so they hadn’t heard some of these things. They had no distinction between authoritarian and authoritative. So those were things that really helped me as a teacher. And then they helped as a parent of a teenager.

Dave: Now you’ve got listeners going, “Okay, you better explain those.” I remember even before we were parents watching Gary Smalley talk about those different styles and as a young married couple, we’re like, “Which one do we want to do?” And “Which ones have the best results?” So listeners want to know.

Ann: Which one do we naturally lean toward as a personality even?

Melissa: Yeah, that’s a good question. And I think that’s good for everyone to ask themselves. So just to give a little bit of definition of each of them. Authoritarian tends to be high control. Yeah, I mean everything you’d think about authoritarian; high control, low warmth is how they would categorize it. A little bit like, “Because I said so.” It’s that parent.

Permissive tends to be high warmth, low control, no boundaries, whatever the child wants is best. And I would say very child-centric in the wrong way, child-centric, whatever the child wants is good. I’m not going to provide any boundaries because that might make that child feel constrained.

You have absentee, which is a category obviously if you’re listening to this, you’re probably not in that category because you’re trying to parent. So that’s someone who’s just not around. And a lot of kids today have absentee parents. That’s a reality.

Authoritative is high warmth with boundaries. I would say authoritative is the type—I call that in this book, I call that a shepherd parent. So yes, there are boundaries. Yes, there are rules. Yes, there are expectations, but there’s also high warmth. So there’s a high degree of conversation happening and here’s what I always like to say. When you’re parenting a two-year-old, the way you communicate your rules is very different than when you’re parenting a sixteen-year-old. This is the time to bring them into the why of why you’re making these rules, why you’re making these decisions.

An authoritative parent, still kind of parents like a two-year-old, “Don’t do it because I said so.” That’s fine when you have a two-year-old and they’re running in the street. I actually am fine. I don’t need to explain to you all the reasons I don’t want you running in the street. At two, don’t run in the street. You’re going to get in trouble if you do that again. At 16, that’s not normally a great model for kids, for parents, because typically that’s when they start wanting to rebel because they are thinking, they’re—

Ann: They’re wondering, “Why? Why can’t I?”

Melissa: Yes, exactly and so authoritative parents are trying to engage them in that conversation. And here’s what I’ll say. I think permissive and authoritarian are both rooted in fear. The authoritarian fears losing control; the permissive fears losing relationship. Both are based in fear, whereas I think authoritative requires a lot of faith. “I can’t force you to even stay in my boundaries,” and there’s an acknowledgement of that, but I’m going to keep putting them forth but I’m going to make sure no matter what you know I love you. I’m going to always come at this with warmth. I’m going to want to understand you as a person, even if you’re questioning faith, even if you’re walking away. I’m going to want to understand you, not just control you, because it makes me look bad.

So I think authoritarian often want to control because they’re worried about how the family looks rather than, how’s the child doing? And that’s all of our temptation.

Dave: What was that sigh?

Ann: Because I think we do care what others think of us without—I would’ve said as my kids were becoming teens, “Yeah, it’s all about Jesus.” But remember, I’ve shared the story, Melissa, I have to tell you this because it’s such a bad parenting moment of teens.

Melissa: I have plenty of those.

Ann: Our oldest was 14, and we were at this big, it was like all of our friends, families were all together and we were about to eat this—we had a potluck kind of thing. We’re about to eat, and there’s probably 50 of us in this house. It’s just jam packed. And somebody says, “Well, let’s pray,” and we’ve got two-year-olds up to fifteen-year-olds. So my son’s one of the oldest, our son is one of the oldest—

Dave: No, he is your son on this day.

Ann: —and we’re about to pray.

Dave: He’s what, 14?

Ann: Yeah, he’s 14, and he says, “This food looks like”—can I say that on the radio? I’ll just say—

Dave: He didn’t curse, but he said a word like poop.

Melissa: Okay.

Dave: Yeah.

Ann: He says it so loud and everybody, this is right before we pray, so it’s pure silence. And so as a mom, I give him the evil eye. You know what I mean?

Melissa: Oh yeah.

Ann: Like, “Oh, oh,” and then something else happens where we’re walking out to the car and he yells in front of everybody, “I have to do everything in this family.” And so now I am so hot and we’re walking out and now we’re going home. We’re walking into the car and I’m right in his ear, “That was so disrespectful.”

Dave: These are all our church people too.

Ann: Oh yeah. Dave, we’re the pastor.

Dave: I’m the pastor.

Ann: —and the pastor’s wife. We get to the car and there’s a big snowbank. It’s Michigan winter, and he gets in the car, but he gets off balance. He slips on this ice, and then I just nudge him with my shoulder, and he falls into this huge snowbank. I get in the car, and I lock all the doors. And then he’s pounding on the window like, “Mom, what are you doing? Let me in.” And then Dave comes up—oh, the pastor’s here—and Dave’s like, “What are you doing?” And so he gets in the car, and then I cry, and I tell Dave, “I will never ever talk about parenting because I have no idea what I’m doing.” But when it came down to it, I was embarrassed and fearful of what everyone was thinking about me.

Melissa: It’s so true and it is. It’s really hard. In that moment, it is really hard because especially as a pastor’s family.

Ann: You know.

Melissa: I mean, everyone’s looking at every decision you make. It’s not just even in those moments, but they’re looking, “Oh, well, the Kruger family lets their kids do this,” and I’m like—

Ann: —go to that movie.

Melissa: It’s not a statement. Kruger family might not be what your family should do; but you do feel this pressure like, “”Okay, yeah, we did watch that show or do things, but it might not be right for your kid.” But yeah, you feel kind of in the fishbowl.

Ann: So what should, as our listeners are hearing those words, what would be a good, like should they talk about that with their spouse if they’re married? Should they figure out, what have I been doing?

Melissa: Yeah, I think it’s really good to ask each other, because here’s the reality. I think we’re most likely to parent how our parents parented. And you often see one parent go to permissive and one go to authoritarian. It’s almost like they’re trying to counterbalance the other.

Ann: Good cop/bad cop.

Melissa: Yes, yes. And some of that’s the environment they grew up in. So I think it’s actually good to self-reflect and say, “What type of home did I grow up in? Did we lean more towards rules? Did we lean more toward permissive? What type of environment was it?” Because that’s going to help you actually realize, why am I defaulting to one style?

Ann: What were you?

Melissa: My mom was a teacher, so I can really say my parents were really good. They were definitely in the authoritative category. I mean, they had boundaries, but not, I don’t even remember many rules as a high school kid. Because at that point we just had a lot of conversations. “Oh, it’s prom. Well, what time would be reasonable to get back?” We’d have a conversation about it. It wasn’t like there were these—they did have some rules, but not a lot.

But I’ll say this too. My brother and I were not pushing many boundaries. I mean; to be fair, we were pretty in the box type kids. But some of that I think was how they were parenting. I didn’t feel the need to push against a lot of their rules because they didn’t give us a lot of them. But we had conversations, “Hey, what would be reasonable? What would be a good idea? What do you think is okay?” And we’d have that conversation.

So I think they really leaned toward that. My mom, again, was a teacher, so I think she had some of these categories. I can still remember as a young kid, she would always give two choices that made me feel like I was in control of making the choice, but it was really, they were both acceptable to her. “Would you like the banana or the apple?”

Ann: So you had a choice.

Melissa: Yes, and I learned that parenting trick from her. I was like, “That’s really good.”

Ann: Especially with strong-willed kids.

Melissa: Yes, because it makes the kid feel like they’re choosing, but you’re really choosing the outcome. And so that’s okay. Those are great ways to do it. You’re still the one actually who’s in control. You’re still being the parent, but you’re giving them opportunity to make choices.

I think that’s really important because these kids are getting ready to launch so they’ve got to start learning how to make some of these choices for themselves or else they’re going to get off to college. And what we don’t want to see is, “Oh, now that mom and dad are gone, I’m making every choice I want to make that they wouldn’t let me make.”

What we’re hoping to teach in these years; these years are so vital to try to show them God’s word is actually for their good, not to keep them from good. So if we are always using it as only the rule rather than, “Oh, I hope my kids remember God’s word being a comfort in their life, an encouragement in their life, a hopeful thing in their life.” It shouldn’t just be the law.

What does Psalm 19 say? “The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul. The statues of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple. The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart.” We want to be communicating that as we’re even giving boundaries; that this is actually how you’re made to work. This is how you flourish. That’s really different than, “Here’s the rule so you don’t embarrass the family.”

Dave: As you think through those different styles, it feels like, just an observation, a lot of our kids now, next generation, parent with more permissive.

Melissa: Yes.

Dave: It’s like the self-esteem of their children is the number one goal and so you never want to hurt that. There’s good in it because they’re really thinking a lot of what we didn’t think about. Self-esteem is really important. I don’t want to give a lot of nos because—but there’s no boundaries.

Melissa: Yes.

Dave: So you watch this and you’re like, “I don’t think that”—and even as you read in your book, permissive doesn’t usually get good results.

Melissa: It doesn’t either. Both of those tend to have negative outcomes on our teens. And it is interesting how culture changes. I definitely grew up in the parenting style where I mean, from the moment they came out, you were to watch their sleep schedule, their eat schedule, you were to be in control. I mean, that was the way the pendulum was swinging. It definitely seems to be swinging in some different ways right now.

I do want to say to parents, and I saw this as a teacher, boundaries matter. I remember one of my high school kids coming up to me and he said, “I can tell Ms. So-and-so doesn’t care about us at all.” And I asked, “Why do you say that?” He goes, “She doesn’t keep our class under control. She just lets us do whatever we want. She doesn’t care about us.”

Ann: Wow.

Melissa: He at 17 could already see that teacher by having an unruly classroom was actually communicating, “I don’t care what you do.” Whereas structure and boundaries actually communicate, “Hey, you’re worth something. You matter, and I’m going to show you how you work best.” Just like, I mean, think about it. We do this in every way with our kids. We make them brush their teeth. Why? Because we care about them. It’s not to give them some rule. It’s because your teeth are going to rot out if you don’t do this. It’s not going to go well for you if you don’t do this.

So boundaries are really for their good. We’re helping them when they don’t yet have the life experience to know, “Hey, that’s not a good choice to drink and drive.” They don’t have the life experience to understand what that might lead to. We all do and so as parents, it’s our responsibility to create right boundaries to help them figure out how to navigate these decisions in this world. And so fear that my kid might not like me, we have to be okay with not being liked by our kids. Every parent’s going to face that.

Dave: Oh yeah, for sure. And let me just say, this kind of content that we’re talking about today is unbelievable. I mean, we wish we would’ve had this when we were young parents raising kids. What a lot of people listening to our program don’t know is this program is supported by our listeners. And this is December; this is year end. So this is a critical time, as you know, for any ministry.

So I’m just going to pause and say, man, if you love what we’re doing, and this is a blessing to you, please be a blessing to us by sending a gift in to FamilyLife. You can do that at FamilyLifeToday.com or you can call us. People actually call us and it’s awesome. 1-800-358-6329; that’s 800-“F” as in Family, “L” as in Life, and the word “TODAY.” It would be such a blessing, I mean, to be able to do this kind of stuff. Here’s my question for you, Melissa. I mean, you’ve got an 18-year-old still.

Ann: Almost 18.

Dave: Yeah, so you still have one. And every time we say 18, you’re like, I’m so sad. They’re going to be gone. I’m telling you; empty nest is incredible. It’s awesome. But it’s also sad.

Ann: He looks at me because he was pumped out of his mind like, “Oh, this is amazing.” And I’m like, “I’m grieving and lamenting.” It’s like a phase of life that I love.

Melissa: Yes.

Dave: But my thought is we started the program saying all three of us love the teen years. There are parents listening that are “No.” I mean, even in your book, I love it. Parenting Light with Hope Dark, and it’s both. Some are in the light and enjoying it. Some are like, it’s hard. My kids are making decisions. We’re yelling. They’re not obeying. So what would you say to that parent that’s listening right now? Like, okay, I’m not where you guys are. I want to be where you are.

Ann: They’re feeling hopeless.

Melissa: Yeah.

Dave: They feel hopeless. Yeah.

Melissa: Yeah. I never want to treat it lightly because these years can be full of so much heart. I and I have different friends walking through every level of hard. We have cried a lot of tears. We have prayed a ton of prayers for kids going through stuff that is so painful and so painful for the child, but so painful for the parent.

And so what I always like to say on that topic is I think what the object of our hope is what matters. So my hope in this season is actually not that my kids are okay, or even that they’re kind of fitting into the mold of what I hope for their life. My hope is placed in the fact that we serve a God who is actually, He cares more about them than I do. He’s the one person who cares about their spiritual development way more than I do, but that He’s always at work in everything that’s happening.

That has been my anchor in whatever season of parenting I’ve been in, is to put my hope firmly in Christ and his ability to redeem whatever is hard and dark and bad. So I can hold onto that no matter what my child’s walking through. And that has been the anchor that has helped me fast when I walk through difficult things with my kids is nothing is wasted. We look at some of the choices they’re making, and they feel so painful, and they feel so heavy. Kids who are doubting the faith, walking away from the faith, walking in complete opposition to the things of scripture and we know it’s not good for them.

Ann: And they’re saying things about their sexuality that we are freaking out about.

Melissa: Yes. I think at that moment, it’s really important to remember, I can’t change their behavior.

Ann: It’s awful.

Melissa: I can’t change what they think about God. I am completely powerless, but I serve a God who is powerful. And so it drives us back to our knees. It drives us back to scripture. I think sometimes what the mistake we make as parents of teens is thinking, if I get angry enough, it’s going to fix them.

Now, when we really think about that, we know that is not the way to do it. It’s his kindness that leads us to repentance. Rather, we are called to walk with them through their doubts, through their unbelief, through their rebellion. We walk with them always holding out the gospel to them. They’re never too far gone to return. We keep saying that over and over and over again. We keep praying for them, but the Spirit has to awaken their hearts.

Ann: And I would add too, Melissa, I know that you’ll agree with me. This is when, for me personally, when my walk with Jesus got even deeper, because I became so desperate. Because as a parent, when you’re lying in bed at night with fear of what could happen, and I don’t know what you’re like and what our listeners are like, but I can tend to go on this trail into the incredibly negative outcome of what all this could mean and what could happen, and it does no good.

And so I started learning to take my thoughts captive. I started memorizing more scripture than I ever had. That’s when I started reading the Bible through every single year, because I needed to replace my fearful thoughts with godly thoughts. And that part of just surrendering them daily, begging God. We’re fasting and praying for our kids because you can tell when they’re not in a great spot. Our kids have been in those spots where you’re so fearful you don’t know what’s going to happen.

I would also add, and we’re going to talk about more on this topic, and you’ve talked about this too, friendships where we’re praying together for our kids. I need somebody else to shoulder this with me, besides Dave and Jesus, but a girlfriend that’s like, “How are they doing? How are you doing? What’s going on?” We have a Father that hears every one of our fears, sees every tear, and He’s there right with us.

Dave: This is FamilyLife Today, and we’re Dave and Ann Wilson. We’ve been talking with Melissa Kruger about her book called Parenting with Hope, a really great book. You can get a copy at FamilyLifeToday.com or give us a call at 1-800-358-6329. That’s 800-“F” as in Family, “L” as in Life, and then the word “TODAY.”

Ann: And as Dave mentioned earlier, this is really a critical time to donate, as we’ve had some friends of the ministry come alongside us to provide that match program.

Dave: Up to two and a half million dollars; that’s a lot.

Ann: And that means your gift is doubled. So your $50 gift becomes $100 and so on; but it’s only during this time of year so we would love you to partner with us. You can just go to FamilyLifeToday.com and become a financial partner with FamilyLife. Or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329. That’s 800-“F” as in Family, “L” as in Life, and then the word “TODAY.”

Now, coming up tomorrow, we’re going to talk to Melissa Kruger again, which I’m so excited about, as we talk about teens. That’s coming up tomorrow. We’ll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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