So You Want to Lead? Practicing Servant Leadership with Dr. Gary Chapman

Gary: A loving leader will love his wife unconditionally. He will love her when she doesn’t deserve loving. When she hurts him and says harsh things to him, he will do exactly what God does. He loves us even when we do wrong. So, a husband will love his wife unconditionally. I like to say, “Guys, I don't think you'll do that without the help of God.”

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.

Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!

Ann: Well, I have to be honest. Yesterday, as we were interviewing Gary Chapman—

Dave: —who's back with us today—

Ann: —I had already read his book, but I found myself taking notes for myself personally, [Laughter] not just for the interview. “Oh, I need to do this and this.” I have two pages of notes of things that I need to change in my marriage to be better.

Dave: Oh, I feel the exact same thing, and we're not newlyweds. [Laughter] We're four decades in, and we're taking notes, not to teach somebody else (which we do a lot of); for our own marriage.

Ann: Yes.

Dave: This is stuff you need to hear. If you missed yesterday, go back and listen, and then come back to Day Two, because we only got two of the Five Traits of a Healthy Family.

Gary, thanks for being with us. Can you review yesterday in a minute? The first one—serving?

Gary: Yes, we said that one of the characteristics of a healthy family is there's an attitude of service. The husband has an attitude of serving the wife; she's serving him; they're serving the children. They're teaching the children how to serve each other and serve other people: an attitude of service. If it's a healthy family, that'll be there.

Secondly, there will be intimacy between the husband and wife. We said that's not just physical intimacy.

Dave: Right.

Gary: That's emotional intimacy, spiritual intimacy, social intimacy. The whole—we're just sharing life with each other in a deep, deep way; intimacy between the husband and the wife.

Ann: If we want this, and we long for it in our marriage, but we have a spouse who doesn't seem like they're on the same page with us, even spiritually, how would you encourage that listener?

Gary: Well, I think we don't blame them. We just say, “Lord, what can I do in this situation?” Because Jesus said, “Don't go condemning the other person. Deal with the speck in your own eye”—or “the plank,” He said, “in your own eye.” [Matthew 7:3, paraphrased]

Dave and Ann: Yes.

Gary: I just say, “Lord, what can I do?” Because one person can change the atmosphere of a home, and that attitude of service is, I think, the first place you start.

Ann: That’s good.

Dave: Yes. I know, when a wife or a husband would come up to me after a sermon, (usually as a pastor), and say, “I can't change my wife. I can't change my husband. What do I do?”

Gary: Yes.

Dave: What would you say? I know what I said. What would you say?

Gary: I'd say, “You're right. You cannot change your spouse, but you can influence your spouse. The most powerful way to influence your spouse is to have the attitude that Jesus had: ‘I'm here to serve them’.”

Dave: Philippians 2.

Gary: I want to find out what I can do to express love to them—to learn their love language and speak their love language, for example. Whether I feel love or not, I want to be God's agent for expressing love to them and serving them.

You're having the most powerful influence you can have, because your service and your love to them is going to stimulate something inside of them that draws them to you.

Dave: Yes.

Gary: We always start with ourselves.

Ann: Gary, I would add, because I've tried to do this in my flesh, and it lasts about two days.

Gary: Yes.

Ann:  But when I'm with Jesus, and I'm asking Him and talking to Him about it—I'm in His Word, that's when His Spirit can work. Otherwise, I'm just trying to do it in and of myself, and I don't have the power; but the Holy Spirit lives within us to change us.

Gary: Yes. I think that's why walking closely with God—because the closer we walk with God by spending time in the Scriptures, talking to God, being honest with God, sharing life with God—the more we realize it's not our power. It's His power.

Dave and Ann: Yes.

Gary: But we have got to open our hearts to it, you know? “The love of God is poured in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.” [Romans 5:5, paraphrased] So, “Lord, you know how I feel about my husband. I don't have any positive feelings for him, but I know You love him, so I'm opening my heart. Pour your love into me, and I'll just channel it to him.”

Ann: So good.

Gary: Or he's doing the same thing toward his wife.

Dave: What's the third trait of a healthy family?

Gary: In a healthy family, parents will teach and train the children.

Dave: Ephesians 6?

Gary: Yes, Ephesians 6.

Dave: Yes, yes.

Gary: It says that we’re to “bring our children up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.” [Ephesians 6:4] Those two words—one has to do with using words: teaching; the other has to do with training: actions. Words and actions go together. So, in teaching and training our children in a healthy family; as parents, we see that as our responsibility.

These kids, in 18 years, are going to be ready to move on to college or join the military or something. So, we’ve got 18 years here to teach and train them. If we use both words and actions—and in our culture, we tend to go to one or the other extreme. There are parents who have the attitude, “All you have to do is just explain to your children why you want them to do something, and they'll do it, because they're intelligent.” So, they explain it, but if the child doesn't do it, they explain it again a little louder, [Laughter] and, eventually, they're yelling at the kids.

Dave: Yes.

Gary: Then the others are the ones that [say], “You don't have to explain [to] kids. You just tell them what to do. You’re the parent.” Put words and actions together. I sometimes describe it like this: let's say that you have a rule that, “We don't throw the ball inside the house. We throw the ball in the yard. If you throw the ball in the house, then the ball has to go in the trunk of the car for two days, and you don't get to have the privilege of using it. If you break something, we'll have to pay for it out of your allowance. Okay?”

Child understands it; you understand it. Every time you have a rule for your children, tell them what the consequences will be if they break the rule.

Ann: Yes.

Gary: Then, when it happens, and they do throw the ball in the house, you go in and you say, “Johnny, I'm so proud of you, because you usually keep the rules.”

Ann: Oh!

Gary: “But you know, this time, you”—

Ann: —Oh, I never did this part! [Laughter]

Dave: The positive part at the beginning?

Ann: Yes! [Laughter]

Gary: “But this time, you did throw the ball in the house, so you know what has to happen, right?” He's nodding “yes” and probably crying. “Let's take the ball out to the trunk of the car.” They put it in the trunk of the car.

“Now, I don't know what the vase will cost. We'll have to find out. We will have to start taking out of your allowance. But listen, man, I'm proud of you because you seldom break the rules.”

What you're doing is, you're wrapping the discipline in love. The child is far more likely to receive the discipline because you're wrapping it in love.

Ann: If you're listening, and you're thinking, “I have drastically failed,” [Laughter] I am with you and in your corner! [Laughter] That wrapping it in love—and you're right! If you know their love language—

Gary: —yes.

Ann: —they have broken the vase and broken the rule, and you start out saying, “I'm so proud of you.” I’m [thinking], “Wait, what? [Laughter] What? This doesn't even make sense.” But it's so disarming to the child, probably, because they're already [thinking], “Oh no!”

Dave: How did that work in your home?

Gary: Well, we had to learn it.

Dave: Yes.

Gary: We didn't know in the early days, to be sure. [Laughter]

Ann: Oh, please. Good! You didn’t do it in the early days? That gives me hope.

Gary: We had to learn it. [Laughter] The reality is: we typically (all of us) respond to the child when they disobey a rule based on our own emotions. If we're kind of uptight already, and we're busy doing something, and then hear they broke the vase, we're [saying], “I told you not to do this!” We yell and scream at them, based on our emotions.

Dave: Yes.

Gary: But if you let them know beforehand what the results are going to be (the consequences will be), you're far less likely to act out of your emotions because you already know, and they already know, what the consequence is going to be. I think we overreact—

Ann: —yes.

Gary: —if we just do the natural thing.

Dave: Did you ever blow it, or have any mistakes or regrets?

Gary: I'll tell you the saddest night of my life in raising a child: our son was 13 or 14. He and I got into an argument one night. I don't remember the topic, but I was yelling at him and screaming at him, and I said hateful things to him. He said hateful things to me. I mean, yelling and screaming.

In the middle of the whole thing, he walked out of his room (which is where we were), walked across the living room, went out the front door and slammed it. When he did, I started crying, and I said, “God, I thought I was further along than this, to be yelling at the son I love.”

So, I just got on my knees and poured my heart out to God and asked Him to forgive me. And, finally, when he came back in—I don't know how long it was, but he came back in—I said, “Derek, could you come in here, son?” He sat down, and I apologized to him. I said, “A father should never talk to a son the way I talked to you. I know I said some horrible things, and that's not the way I feel about you. I love you very much. I'm sorry that I lost my temper at you, and I want to ask you to please forgive me.”

He said, “Dad, that was not your fault. I started that, and I shouldn't talk to you that way. When I was walking up the street, I asked God to forgive me, and I want you to forgive me.” We hugged, and we cried. [Laughter]

Ann: I’m crying.

Gary: I sometimes say, “That's one of the saddest nights of my life and one of the happiest nights.”

Dave: Yes, right.

Gary: Sad because of my failure; happy because I just heard my son apologize.

Ann: The thing that I was thinking, as well, when you were approaching the discipline and the consequence, but wrapping it in love, I really thought, “That's how our Father God is with us.”

Gary: Yes.

Ann: He loves us! We all have a different perception of what God is like; but I now—I didn't use to, but I now—see God like that. He's not [saying], “Oh, my!” He's not yelling. He's [saying], “Oh, first of all, I love you.”

Gary: Yes.

Ann: But there is a consequence to our actions, to our sin.

Gary: That’s right.

Ann: But He always wraps it back in love, and I think that's why we have to run to Him, because He's the safest place and the most loving Person that we could ever encounter.

Gary: Yes, absolutely.

Ann: But I love that that gives our children a glimpse of God's love for them.

Gary: Yes.

Ann: But also, His consequence is out of love.

Gary: Absolutely, yes.

Dave: All right! We're on number four.

Gary: In a healthy family, husbands will be loving leaders; not a popular idea in our culture, [Laughter] because we have a distorted idea of leadership. Many people have read, “The husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church.” [Ephesians 5:23] They say, “Well, that means he's the president!”

Dave: Yes.

Gary: “She's the vice president,” or “He's the general who tells her what to do.”

No, it says, “The head of the wife as Christ is the Head of the Church.” What did the Head of the Church do for the Church?

Dave: Laid down His life.

Ann: Yes.

Gary: He died for the Church. That's why I say, “loving leaders.” If a husband recognizes, “I'm here to lead this family in what it means to walk with God and how to have fellowship with God. And that begins by serving my wife like Christ served the Church.” Most wives are not going to run away from that kind of leader.

So, a loving leader—and in the book, I kind of spell out what that really looks like. I just try to be more practical in the book.

Ann: Yes; share some of those with us, because we don't often hear it today.

Gary: One of them is that the loving husband would view his wife as a partner. We're on the same team. I'm not here to win an argument with her, because that means she's a loser. I don't want to create a loser. She's a partner with me. We're on the same team.

Then, the husband will communicate with his wife. One of the most common things I hear from wives is, “I don't ever know what he's thinking. He doesn't ever share it with me. I don't know what he's thinking.” So, a husband will share and will communicate with his wife what he's thinking, because he sees them as a team.

Then a third one is that the husband will put his wife at the top of his priority list. Now, when I say that, people say, “Wait a minute! God's supposed to be at the top.” [Laughter] I say, “You’re right, but when a husband reports to God for duty, God says [paraphrase], ‘Okay, let's see. You're married, so your first priority is going to be to serve your wife like Christ serve the church’.”

“Oh, okay.” [Laughter]

Then, a loving leader will love his wife unconditionally. He will love her when she doesn’t deserve loving, when she hurts him and says harsh things to him, he will do exactly what God does. He loves us even when we do wrong. So, a husband will love his wife unconditionally.

I like to say, “Guys, I don't think you'll do that without the help of God.”

Dave: Right.

Gary: Before all this stuff in Ephesians, it says, first of all, “Don't be controlled by wine or liquor, but be controlled by the Holy Spirit.” [Ephesians 5:18, paraphrase]

Ann: Yes.

Gary: Let God pour His love into you, and you can do it. You can be this kind of leader in your home.

Dave: Yes, I think often that's missed in that Ephesians 5 passage; what you just said. It comes out of the context of, “This is how you get the power.”

Gary: Yes.

Dave: It's the filling of the Holy Spirit. And then, there's a discussion about marriage and even parenting. We think, “Oh, okay. I’ve got to muster up enough energy, and I have got to figure how to do this.” He’s like, “Well, that's a good move, but you can't. You'll just fail and fail and fail until you [say], ‘Jesus, You’ve got to do this in me and through me’.”

Gary: Yes, absolutely.

Dave: Do you have stories, like you did with your son, with your wife, where you didn't love and lead like you're just talking about?

Gary: No. As I said earlier, there were many times that I was yelling and screaming at her. Then, in the later years, there were times when I didn't yell and scream outside, but in my mind, I was yelling and screaming at her: “Why would you do that?”

A lot of it was just over practical stuff: the way she loaded the dishwasher. I'm an organized person. [Laughter] I believe it ought to be everything in its place. It'll all get cleaned; nothing will get broken. She loads the dishwasher like she's playing Frisbee. [Laughter] I tried to explain to her: “God is a God of order.” [Laughter]

Ann: I bet that went over well. [Laughter]

Dave: What is it about the dishwasher? We hear more—

Ann: —stories—

Dave: —conflicts over that.

Ann: —because we all feel right.

Gary: Eventually, my wife said to me, “Honey, if it's so important to you, why don't you load the dishwasher?” [Laughter] I said, “Well, yes, okay. I can do that.” But I said, “Some nights, Honey, I have to go back to the church right after dinner, and so you'd have to load it on those nights.” She said, “I don't mind loading it.” I'm thinking, “I know you don't, but I've got to unload it in the morning.” [Laughter]

I want to tell you another layer of that: twelve years ago, my wife had cancer. [She] went through surgery and through chemotherapy; lost her hair. She calls it her “lost year”. She lost weight, and so, that's really all she did. She just walked through that year. Now, she's fine; but when you go through that kind of experience, none of those things bother you.

Dave: Yes.

Gary: Sometimes, when she loads the dishwasher now, I look down there, and I laugh. I say, ‘Thank you. God! She's still here to load it like that.”

Dave: Yes.

Ann: Gary, I was—the same kind of story, I was—meeting with a nurse, and I was just talking to her briefly. She asked what we did, and we talked about marriage and writing, and all that. I just talked about [how] our book was about how we almost lost our marriage. She said, “Yes, I used to be really bugged about the things that my husband did.” I said, “Did you divorce?” She said, “No. He died in a plane crash.”

Gary: Wow.

Ann: She said, “Every day, I'd look at these drinking glasses that he would just leave on the side of the sink, and it used to drive me crazy!” Then, she (and this has been maybe 20 years ago) got teary, and she said, “What I wouldn't give to see those two glasses sitting by that sink now.”

Gary: Yes.

Ann: “All the things that I thought were a big deal were nothing.”

Gary: Yes.

Ann: That's exactly what you're saying.

Gary: Absolutely, absolutely! [It] puts it in perspective.

Dave: Yes. Okay, you have one more?

Gary: Yes. The last one is that, in a healthy family, children will obey and honor their parents.

Dave: What does that look like?

Gary: Well, I think obedience has to be learned, and I think we do for our children what God does for us. We give them guidelines; we call them “commandments” in the Scriptures. “These are things we don't do; these are things we do.” Every commandment God ever gave, negative or positive, grew out of His love for us.

So, all of our rules ought to flow out of our love for our children. Don't have unnecessary rules. Have rules that are for the good of the child. When they do obey the rules, we reward them. I’ve heard people say, “Well, why do you reward children for doing good?” God does. [Laughter] The psalmist said, “Lord, Your statutes are there for me, and when I do them, You bless me.”

Commend them for the positive things, for obedience. Don't just accept it as a normal thing. Affirm their obedience. So, we teach them to obey. I think, also, by letting them suffer the consequences when they do wrong. I said to a father once, when his son was put in jail overnight because he was driving under the influence—and he said, “I'm going go down and get him out.” I said, “You can, but I wouldn't suggest it.” He asked, “What do you mean?”

I said, “Let him suffer the consequences. You can get him out tomorrow, or next week or whatever, but let him suffer the consequences. Let him sit there a little while.” Because we learn—all of us learn—by suffering the consequences. We're always worse when we break God's law.

Dave: Yes.

Gary: “Let him suffer the consequences.”

Ann: Why do you think it's so hard for us as parents to do that, to let—especially, I feel like, in our culture now; it's very hard to let our kids suffer the consequences?

Gary: Yes. Well, I don't know. I don’t know [if it’s] because we don't want them to just have to suffer?

Ann: We hate for them to be sad or broken.

Gary: Yes, we want them to be happy; but they're going to be happy on the other side if they suffer the consequences. They're less likely to do it again, you know, if they suffer the consequences.

Dave: Yes. I've always talked about writing some book Ten Best Gifts Parents Can Give Their Kids, and every one of them is a negative: adversity, trial, hard work. [Laughter] It's like [people question], “Those aren’t…?” No, those are the best gifts! [Laughter]

I remember when our boys were going into high school, we [said], “One of our values for the Wilsons”—we even took our name, “Wilson”: “W” means work hard—“we want to raise boys”—we have three sons—”who know how to work.”

Gary: Yes.

Dave: So, we [thought], “What are the hardest jobs they could do?” And they both did them: roofing and cement. [Laughter]

Ann: They all did them.

Dave: Man, they’d come home just—you know, 100 degrees, on a roof all day, covered. We had other parents saying, “Those are dangerous jobs. I wouldn't let my kids do that.” I'm [thinking], “Yes! That’s why we’re letting them do it.” [Laughter]

Again, you don't want to put your kids in danger—

Gary: —right, yes.

Dave: —but you want to let them feel a hard day's work, if that's a value, and—

Gary: —yes.

Gary: —let them go through the thing.

Ann: And they do! They know how to work now.

Dave: They do! They’re workers.

Ann: I thought, “We're going to make them hard workers,” but when they got into those jobs—I think one of them already was, but one of them was not—so, Dave said to his boss, “You have my permission to kick his butt. [Laughter] Make him work hard.”

Dave: Yes, because he told me after a month; he said, “Your son's not a hard worker.” I looked at him—this was at church; I'm his pastor, and he felt bad saying that to me—

Gary: —yes.

Dave: —I said, “Ron, kick his butt!” He said, “What?” “Make him a worker. [Laughter] I hope you can do that.” And I'll tell you, two months later, Ron came up and said, “Your boy can work!” [Laugher] I said, “That's because you helped him.” [Laughter]

Ann: We know Ron's character. He's a fun, loving, great guy, and so, he did it in a way that was great.

Dave and Gary: Yes.

Dave: But when you say, “Children who obey,” did you have a lot of rules? Did you have just a few? What it looked like in the Chapman house?

Gary: Well, I think we didn't overdo it, but we did have some specific things; and to me, that's key—specific things—that you do or don't do. We had more trouble with our son than we did with our daughter. Our daughter could have raised herself. [Laughter] She just always did things right; and he was exactly the opposite.

Ann: And your poor son, [Laughter] having that comparison to his perfect sister.

Gary: Yes. She said, when she was eight years old, “When I grow up, I'm going to be a doctor.” So, when she went to high school, she took three years of chemistry and four years of Latin, in high school. [Laughter]

Dave: Really?

Gary: And Derek said, “Shelley is so focused, she's going to miss out on a lot of life.” Because he was never focused! [Laughter] He had a little rock band in high school. He was the guitarist and the lead singer. We would go to his shows, you know, local shows, small group things.

When I wrote a book some time ago called Things I Wish I'd Known Before We Became Parents,—

Dave: —yes.

Gary: —one chapter is: I Wish I'd Known That No Two Children are Alike. [Laughter]

Dave: Yes.

Ann: Yes.

Gary: And let them be who they are!

Ann: No three children are alike—

Gary: —yes.

Ann: —or four children. Yes, let them be who they are.

Gary: That's right, yes.

Dave: Hey, Gary, let's end here. If I'm listening to Five Traits of a Healthy Family, and I'm [thinking], “We're not healthy.” What would you say? Where do I start? How can I start a journey toward building a healthy family, husband or wife?

Shelby: We'll hear Gary's answer to that question in just a minute, but first, I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Dr. Gary Chapman on FamilyLife Today. Dr. Chapman has written a book called Five Traits of a Healthy Family: Steps You Can Take to Grow Closer, Communicate Better, and Change the World Together.

One of the ways that we taste and see that the Lord is good is by actually experiencing a healthy and thriving family that honors the Lord because it's a family that's rooted in biblical principles. This book is going to be helpful for you and your family in order to taste and see that the Lord is good, and it's going to be our gift to you when you give today to the ministry of FamilyLife.

You can get your copy right now with any donation by going online to FamilyiLfeToday.com and clicking on the “Donate Now” button at the top of the page. Or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY”. Or you can feel free to drop us something in the mail if you’d like. Send your donation to: FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.

Alright, I want to hear his answer. So, let's get back to Dr. Chapman, answering the question: “Where do I start if I don't have a healthy or thriving family?”

Gary: I think the first thing I would hope, and if I could do it, I would give a copy of this book to every couple in the world and begin to work through it as a couple. If the spouse is willing.

Dave: Yes.

Gary: “Let's just read this chapter-by-chapter and see what we can learn and what steps we can take to improve.” And don't get in a rush. It may take you a year, but you're just working through it. You're making changes, because changes have to take place incrementally. Most of the changes have to start with us being changed—

Dave and Ann: —yes.

Gary: —and asking God to change our attitude and help us to have a loving attitude rather than a selfish attitude. Your family can be better. It can be better, but it does take effort; it does take choices; it does take discovering what we can do to make it better.

And your kids will get into it. Whenever they begin to realize that you're making changes, they'll get into it; and they'll help you begin to create a healthy family.

Dave: Yes.

Gary: Especially, I would hope that people who grew up in a dysfunctional family and have no idea what a healthy family looks like—they're the ones that could really profit from working through something like this.

Dave: Right, that’s a good word.

Ann: Well, thanks for helping to make all of us healthy and to seek Jesus.

Dave: Yes.

Gary: Thank you.

Ann: You’re a hero.

Gary: Enjoyed being with you guys. Thank you.

Shelby: Now, coming up tomorrow, Jill and Paul Miller are going to be here with Dave and Ann Wilson to talk about their daughter Kim’s disability with autism and its impact on their family. That's coming up tomorrow. We hope you'll join us.

On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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