That Time We Fled Iran; Life as a Christian Refugee: Daniel Nayeri

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Daniel: You cannot just want the God of the Law; because if that’s all you have, then you will become a punishing person: a person who wants justice, at all costs, and has no love. And then, of course, if you only want the God, who listens—then, absolutely, you want love—but you want it without standards; you want it without expectation; and you want it without obligation. You have to have both.

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife app.

Ann: This is FamilyLife Today.

Dave: Alright; we are back for Part Two—it may be Part Two of Twelve—I don’t know. [Laughter] This story, with Daniel Nayeri [Laughter]—Daniel, say your last name—because we’ve been talking about this off-air.

Daniel: Yes, Nayeri.

Dave: We’re talking about your book, Everything Sad Is Untrue, which is really your story. Yesterday, you ended with: basically, you sleep under the bed; because you’re so scared.

Ann: —as a little boy.

Dave: Yes.

Daniel: That’s right.

Ann: Recap for us, Daniel, where we—

Dave: —38 seconds to recap the whole of last time; go on. [Laughter]

Daniel: —FLR. [Laughter] Where were we? Well, we were born and raised in Iran. My mother, a devout Muslim, converts to Christianity as a matter of faith and conscience. It’s a capital crime, so she’s caught by the secret police—interrogated—and told that, if they don’t tell the names of all the people in the underground church, they’ll kill her and her kids. Jump forward to a quick escape from Iran, where my father chooses to stay; my mother, my sister, and I become refugees.

I think we pick it up there: we land from a plane into the UAE [United Arab Emirates], where, at that point, we become what is known as the global homeless, right? The difference between a refugee and an immigrant, of course, is that their state of citizenship or their country of citizenship is trying to do them harm. This happens in instances of civil war, of revolution—these kinds of things. At that point, all of our documents are moot; we don’t have citizenship. I don’t think we even packed—I know we didn’t pack—my birth certificate. Quite a lot of complexity gets put into the system; but effectively, we’re missing from our court date in Iran; and now, wandering in the UAE.

Ann: And you are how old?—and your sister.

Daniel: I’m five; she’s eight. And we’re with my mom.

Ann: And you’re coming from an affluent family—where your dad was a dentist; your mom’s a doctor—and now, you have nothing.

Daniel: Yes, that was quite a threshold, right? In Iran, there was quite a lot of land. My mother had her own practice; my father had his own practice. We had a lovely home in Isfahan, in a nice area—and all the family’s around, so all that institutional and generational wealth—grandpa has a house, and you can go there on the weekends; and it’s on a beautiful orchard, because he tills and works the land. Yes, I would call it, certainly by comparison, an incredibly affluent life. The minute we become refugees, yes, it goes away.

There was actually a missionary couple from Australia—and they were doctors, as well—and they had a clinic in Abu Dhabi. We were able to live in the back of that clinic. My mother worked there for about ten months while we were trying to figure out how to get asylum. When you’re a refugee, one of the tasks is that you’re going to the embassies of these different countries—if you need protection from Iran and government—you’re looking for asylum; you’re looking for protection. Your choices are—the UK, Canada, America, Australia—the West. You’re going to these embassies; and you’re effectively speaking to these administrators and trying to convince them of a lot of things.

It’s a dark place; it’s a dark world. One of the first things you have to establish is: “Are these actually your kids?” There’s a lot of trafficking; so if we don’t have the documentation—if you don’t have; and frankly, if you don’t even speak [the language]—there’s a lot of challenge in saying: “Okay, we need to have a translator,” “We need to fill out all the papers.”

Ann: You don’t have your birth certificate.

Daniel: Right; exactly. We have to sit in—and then, they’re in Farsi, right?—so you’re in this very amorphous holding pattern. The waiting room is chock full of people—there’s babies everywhere; there’s people everywhere; there’s crying; it’s a very chaotic environment—think of the worst DMV you’ve ever been to.

Dave: There’s a lot of—

Ann: —which is terrible.

Daniel: Exactly!

Dave: There’s a lot of: “Take a number.”

Daniel: A lot of papers, in a language you don’t speak; a lot of people trying to hawk their translation services—some of them well-meaning; some of them, maybe, they’re there to try to make a buck—so you’re trying to suss this out/you’re trying to figure out: “What’s going on?”

You’re waiting for your turn; you get your number; you have a person—an unsmiling individual—who’s there to ask a lot of questions. Frankly, they’re there to filter a lot of what we could, euphemistically, call shenanigans—a lot of people trying to get places; people are lying about their refugee status—a lot of people are just trying to get to the West, and they’re not in any kind of danger. You have to establish the fact that you’re in physical harm; there’s actual danger for you. You have to establish, again, these are your kids; they’re going to interview the kids.

It’s a very pressurized environment—that’s just for one country—you’re interviewing/applying for lots of countries. It’s a time that a lot of people describe as a lot of waiting, a lot of misunderstanding, a lot of trying to tell your story to somebody, who—it’s not, necessarily, their fault; they’re, at that point, immune to the pain of other people—they sit there, [listening]—

Ann: —every day.

Daniel: —there are liars; and there are thieves; and there’s also tragic, horrible circumstances; and there’s people who are in extreme duress, and none of it can be communicated [because] the language barrier is very real.

Ann: Have you ever asked your mom, at that time, “What was going on for her, spiritually?” I’m imagining, myself, with two little kids: I’m praying; I’m crying, like, “God, I need you so desperately.” Did she ever talk about that?

Daniel: She does, yes; the strain was quite heavy at that point. I remember days where she’s just so stressed: crying, breaking down at the back of a bus, or something like that. Those days are there, too; but on the whole, kind of this feeling of provision—

Ann: She felt God’s hand.

Daniel: Yes; there was so many instances of something wild happening—some very improbable—for example, we hear that the Iranian government is searching for us. It was a black eye that [looks for] this person who had committed apostacy. We hear this; and we think, “Oh, no; what could happen?”

Within a short period of time, we hear that we get a temporary admittance to Italy, where they had a refugee camp set up—a refugee settlement—it was an old hotel called the hotel Barba in the outskirts of Rome. There’s a feeling—a malaise, culturally and spiritually—that happens in these places, where you’re just waiting. You have a sudden negative space that happens in your life; this is what’s happening for months and months.

Ann: Ah; I can’t imagine.

Daniel: You don’t get the feeling—you can’t garden, right?—will you even [stay long enough to] wait for the stuff to come up? You can’t/you don’t think to yourself: “Can I maximize my productivity during this time?” You just think:

• “I may just wait for this pay-for-work to happen”; and then, “Who knows where I’ll be?”
• “Do you even study English, or should you study Swedish?” “I don’t know; you could end up in either one.”

There’s a real challenge there. My mother was very aggressively trying to keep us out of that nihilistic; that’s just the sadness of it all.

Ann: I can’t imagine.

Daniel: She found a family again—she was searching through these church organizations—she found a family who were there for the husband’s work. They were homeschooling their kids; so they have these workbooks/this curriculum—there were

66 workbooks; 11 subjects—or 6 subjects; 11 books. They had kids our age.

We’d get on a bus every morning instead of staying in this refugee-holding space. We would get on a bus, go through Rome, get to their house; they were really kind about letting us have the old books that they had used. She would buy these big erasers; he would sit next to us, and erase workbooks all day, and hand them to my sister and me. We would fill them out; that’s how I learned the beginnings of English.

Ann: Nice. [Laughter] Look at your mom go!

Daniel: She’s wild, right?—unstoppable.

Ann: Yes! And look at God—giving her wisdom as to what to do, where to go, who to talk to—but He puts these pretty pivotal people in your lives.

Daniel: Absolutely, yes. That’s where, I think, a lot of the feeling of the answer to prayer happens in her life; because it’s just in the form of people having kids exactly our age. That’s wild, right? I mean, that’s not improbable; but it’s not exactly common, either.

I remember our time in Italy as kind of fascinating and beautiful. We didn’t have the money to sight-see; but we would go to a town, like Florence, and sleep on the train on the way back; but also, get six hours there. I think it’s the energy of her: “We’re not going to sit,” “This isn’t going to be a death sentence.”

Ann: “Are you listening to that?”—as women. [Laughter] I’m thinking of the many moms, who are listening: “We impact our kids. They’re watching us: they feel our energy; they feel our walk with God.” I think that is important to remind ourselves: “We’re making a difference in our kids’ lives.”

Daniel: Yes, to this day, that kind of travel is my favorite.

Ann: Really?

Daniel: Yes, I adore backpacking and traveling in a really limited way. I think it’s from that memory.

The story goes: we spent another stint there until a family in Oklahoma—we hear through several different church organizations—were willing to sponsor us. Their names were Jim and Jean Dawson. Jim was a retired engineer from NASA, and Jean was a teacher. They had had their children, and their children were grown. They lived in this house in Edmond, were retired.

Kind of a wild thing to do—I think upon it now—they felt that God had put it on their heart to do that. You would have to; because, logistically, a banana’s thing to do. Imagine you [read] on paper—a single mom, [who] doesn’t speak the language; two kids under ten—they’re going to come. If they become wards of the state, your credit is shot—[Laughter] it’s completely—to cosign for a refugee family is a really big burden.

To my mother’s credit, she wasn’t here to be still, either. We landed; within weeks, she has her driver’s license, her green card, and has a job. We weren’t there [at their house] longer than a few—in was within weeks—we had an apartment.

Ann: Could she speak English?

Daniel: At that time, it would be a very difficult English. She could understand pretty well; but making herself understood was a lot harder, pretty strong accent. Not able to work in a high-professional capacity—she had more menial jobs at that time—the language barrier was the reason.

We live in Oklahoma. Now, all of a sudden, it’s that kind of story of: everything is different, and everything is new. I’m trying to just understand it all.

Dave: Listen to this quote; it says: “The legend of my mom is that she can’t be stopped: not when you hit her; not when a whole country, full of goons, puts her in a cage; not even if you make her poor and try to kill her slowly in the little-by-little poison of sadness. The legend is true, I think, because she’s fixed her eyes on something beyond the rivers of blood to a beautiful place on the other side. How else would anybody do it?” What a tribute to your mom.

Daniel: Yes, yes; she’s absolutely the hero of this book. There’s another line in there that I think of as my mother’s mantra; which is, trying to redefine strength for people. It’s not like this gigantic, muscled, tough guy; it’s, for me, this image of my mother, who is this very diminutive person. The line is: “If you don’t stop, you’re unstoppable,”—not if you’re incapable of being stopped—but “If you don’t stop, they’re unstoppable.” I think about that a lot when I think about her.

Dave: When you think back on your life—and even now—where do you see God or Jesus in the story?—besides walking in your sister’s bed—

Daniel: —tangibly in the room? [Laughter]

Dave: Yes; I mean, as you look through, and think about your life, do you feel like there’s a Jesus behind the curtain the whole time?

Daniel: Oh, of course! I don’t know if He was so removed as to be behind the curtain. I think—

Ann: Good answer.

Daniel: I think He was right in the middle of the whole thing. It’s almost impossible not to. It would be very challenging for me to dis-associate this; because my life is utterly different. A story—no matter how sad or problematic—once it ends this way, has to have been the best path; because it ended with my wife and sons. Once you have a kid, the valance of almost every decision you’ve made changes; that journey led to here, and I’m utterly grateful for it.

Dave: Was there a moment where you’re faith in that Jesus—like your mom’s faith—did that happen for you in high school?—or middle school?—or any time?

Daniel: Yes, one thing I always say is: “When you have a mom like mine, you have to contend with this topic. [Laughter] You cannot—

Ann: “Moms, are you listening to this?” This is so good for us to hear.

Daniel: I’ll tell my friends/adults—we’ll be sitting around—I’ll tell them part of the story. I’ll describe what she had—all the material things of the world—and then, I describe what life was like for a long time for us, where we were dirt-poor. There will be a moment where people are standing around, listening; someone will always pause, and say, “So then, why did she do all this?”

What’s funny—my mom always gets this really cheeky look in her face—when someone asks that question; because she’ll/the only answer is: “Because it’s true.” You have to ask yourself, when you look at my mother: “Was she nuts?”—like “The worst trade in the history of trades,”—or “Did she make a good trade?” And the trade was everything: family, home, country, money, wealth, practice, professional advancement—you name it—and on the other side, is: “Nothing but Jesus.” You say, “She’s either nuts or she’s a logical person, who made a trade that had absolutely the right value.” Because no one makes a trade unless they think they’re getting the better part.

Dave: Right; right.

Daniel: She got the better part of that trade.

Ann: As you’re talking about that your mom’s the hero of the story, and your mom’s hero is Jesus—Jesus is the One who did all of that—and He continues to do that for all of us. I look at you—you grow up; as a young man—you’re in Tim Keller’s church, being discipled by him for years. Of all the places to go, spiritually, for that depth of being discipled—

Dave: He could have been in our church, been discipled by me; but yes, Tim Keller’s a good second. [Laughter]

Ann: I’m imagining your mom to be a woman of prayer—that she’s just been on her face, before God—asking Him to guide, to lead, to show. And her life has been hard; and yet, miraculous, too. You’re such a reflection of all of that.

Don’t you think that, with him?

Dave: Oh, yes; I haven’t met her; I’ve seen her on video. [Laughter]

I love how you described: “Do you want a God who listens?” or “…a God who speaks?” Explain that.

Daniel: I was watching all the adults as a young person. I started to think about the way they interacted. When you talk to my mother—especially, during that time—the answer to so many things was: “God.” Like she was a bad Sunday school teacher, where it’s just like: “So why are we leaving my house?” “…with Jesus.” “Okay”; is that going to be the answer to everything?” [Laughter]

As a kid, [I was] very aware of what people/how people interacted with their impressions of God. There’s this line—the theme in the [Keller’s] book that what he’s saying—“Would you rather a God who speaks or a God who listens?” He describes the God who speaks is the God who comes down the mountain and gives you the Law—He declares; He tells you how to be—He’s the God of the Old Testament. He is the God who holds forth, and your job is to shut up and submit. And then, there’s the God who listens, who sits down beside you, and lets you talk and hears your troubles, and hears your sadness, and understands it, and takes it on; that’s the God who listens.

Interestingly, as he’s going through the book, he’s realizing that he can’t be either/or; right? You cannot just want the God of the Law; because if that’s all you have, then you will become a punishing person: a person who wants justice, at all costs, and has no love. And then, of course, if you only want the God, who listens—then, absolutely, you want love—but you want it without standards; you want it without expectation; and you want it without obligation. That would, also, not be a proper way of mercy; you have to have both.

You have to hold both in your hands, somehow: a God who speaks and a God who listens. You look around the world, and you look around at different religions: that’s pretty hard to come by. There’s a lot of gods who speak and a lot of gods who listen only. He starts to see, as the book goes on, that Jesus is a God who speaks and a God who listens. He, specifically, came down to listen; right? At the same time, to declare a very particular and important standard.

Going back to Tim Keller, that’s pretty much my paraphrasing of him. [Laughter] He talks about that a lot, too, right? You cannot just be—justice, without mercy, is cruel; mercy, without justice, is lawlessness—as a young person, that would be the early seeds of me making that choice for myself; I knew where everybody else stood.

Dave: In some ways, as I think of your mom—again, never meeting her—she revealed a God who speaks and listens.

Ann: —to you.

Dave: You sort of saw it—she incarnated it, in a sense; she’s not God, of course—but I thought, “Jesus did that”; because when you finally get to Him, and He says, “Hey, Phillip, if you’ve seen Me, you’ve seen the Father,”—you get both—you get the Old Testament wrapped up in grace and love. You’re like, “Wow!” I think your mom modeled that, as well. It had to be so compelling: “Who wouldn’t want to follow that God that my mom is making known?”—through her incarnation of Jesus.

Ann: I keep having the picture of you guys coming back on a bus—imagining her packing up lunches, and taking that eraser and erasing all of those workbooks—

Dave: You would do that.

Ann: —so that you can do that. That’s what moms do. That’s what we do—

Dave: That’s what moms do.

Ann: —when we love our kids.

I just want to remind us, as moms: “There’s never a time Jesus hasn’t seen you, hasn’t been wanting to talk to you. [He] loves you and will care for you. No matter where you are in the world, He loves you and sees you.”

Daniel, thanks!

Daniel: Thank you! Thanks for having me.

Shelby: That is so true. I really appreciate Ann’s perspective and reminder: “Jesus sees you. In all those mundane moments of life, the Savior of the world sees you, values you, and loves you more than you can imagine.” It’s really important to remember that—when things are kind of chaotic, and crazy, and also, kind of boring—the Lord sees you. He knows you; He values you; He appreciates the contributions that you make to your own family by sacrificing yourself, your time, your energy in order that your family might flourish.

I’m Shelby Abbott; and you’ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson, with Daniel Nayeri, on FamilyLife Today. His story is compelling, isn’t it? Well, you can read more about it, and learn more about what God did from this little refugee from Iran to Oklahoma in the memoir that he wrote called Everything Sad Is Untrue. You can get your copy, right now, by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can find the link in the show notes. Or feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329 to request your copy. Again, that number is 800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”

You know, stories like these come to us because of the partnership of people, just like you, who donate and make the ministry of FamilyLife Today possible. All this month, we are looking to raise an additional $250,000 in new funds by the end of August. We’d love it if you would hop in with us and become a part of the solution, here, at FamilyLife. It’s easy to do; all you have to do is go online to FamilyLifeToday.com to make your donation. Or give us a call at 800-358-6329. You can also drop a donation in the mail if you’d like; our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, FL 32832.

Now, coming up tomorrow, Daniel Nayeri is back to talk about his journey to fatherhood, the challenges of raising a child, and the influence of Tim Keller in his life. That’s coming up tomorrow; we hope you’ll join us. On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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