The Seed of the Woman, Esther: Nana Dolce

Episode Transcript

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Seed of the Woman, Part Two

Guest:Nana Dolce

From the series:Seed of the Woman, Part Two (Day 1 of 4)

Air date:Monday, July 15, 2024

Nana: In Genesis, it says that there will be the seed of the woman, but there’s also the seed of the serpent—

Ann: —yes.

Nana: —who will try to strike the seed of the woman. There are moments in our lives where that serpent will try to strike us in our daily, everyday lives. There’s always a cosmic battle, but God’s purposes cannot be overcome.

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.

Dave: This is FamilyLife Today!

Okay, so we have one of our favorite guests back in the studio today.

Ann: We sure do. We’re super excited to have Nana Dolce in the studio with us again. Her book is The Seed of The Woman: 30 Narratives That Point to Jesus. Welcome. We’re so excited you’re back.

Nana: I am so thrilled to be back with you all. Thank you so much.

Ann: The last time you were with us, you brought scriptures alive. But talk a little bit: what is this book, and why did you happen to write it?

Nana: Yes.

Ann: Because it really does make you want to read the Bible even more and go deeper.

Nana: And that’s the best part about it, [Laughter] that it sends you back to the best story.

Ann: Yes.

Nan: 30 Narratives That Point to Jesus, and those 30 narratives are 30 narratives of 30 women in the Bible. So, the book begins with Eve, and it follows Old Testament redemptive history, and lands on Mary. And that seed of the woman promised to Eve, ultimately, is Jesus, who was born through Mary.

Ann: And women, if you haven’t gotten this book—

Dave: —or listened to the programs we did last year—

Ann: —yes; I have Nana’s book beside my Bible, and it’s just this great read because you’re discovering these women in the Bible that you’ve probably read before, but Nana goes deeper into it, and all of it applies to us today, too. I think it’s really good.

Dave: Now, how did you end up writing and studying this topic? Is this what you do for a living?

Nana: A little yes, and a little no. [Laughter] It began as a small group study with a few young women from my church.

Dave: Wow.

Nana: I really wanted them to see the story of the Old Testament. Sometimes, I think, when we go to read our Bibles, we skip some of those corners in the Old Testament that just seem—

Ann: —why do you think we do that?

Nana: They’re harder, maybe, to understand? Some of those stories can be dark. So, even these thirty women—oh, there are some stories in here of women who are abused: vulnerable women.” There’s some darkness in there, and it’s hard to kind of delve into that and wade through some of those stories.

Ann: And yet hope—

Nana: —yes.

Ann: —that God can still use them,—Nana: —absolutely!

Ann: —despite the darkness of what they’ve encountered.

Nana: Absolutely; yes. And seeing that the darkness they’re going through is a description of a fallen world. It’s not a prescription that God is saying, “This is what it should be, but this is what it is because of sin.”

But you see God in those stories,—Ann: —yes.

Nana: —and you see that He’s working to redeem, and to make all things new, and to bring His Son Who will redeem all of it. So, even in those dark stories, we see Jesus, and we see the hope of the Gospel.

I wanted these young ladies to see that. I wanted to just walk them through the story of Scripture. Because we’re women, we tend to enjoy the stories of women. So, I use these narratives as our landing point in telling a bigger story. That’s what I hope the book does.

Ann: As you think back to those first days of leading that study with these women, what was their response? Were they surprised? Did they like it?

Nana: Oh! They still talk about it.

Ann: Do they?

Nana: They loved it! They would come with their pens, and their journals, and their Bibles. They would prepare beforehand; so, it wasn’t a situation where, “I’m the expert, and I’m giving you all of this information.” They’re doing some work beforehand.

Ann: What did they do? So, they read it?

Nana: They needed to read it and think through some questions, and they were always so excited. I remember one young lady in particular who still talks about it. She continues to talk about it today. We all enjoyed it. Actually, it took two years. [Laughter]

Ann: Wow!

Nana: That’s how long it took. We called it Tea and Theology. [Laughter] They would come, and we would have sweet tea; we would eat some good food; and they would be on my couch forever.

Ann: So, could women still do that today? Use this as a small group?

Nana: Oh, absolutely!

Dave: [Do] you know what? As a preacher for 30 years, that should be a prerequisite for church: “I’m teaching on Abraham next week. Read it all week. Read it every day.”

Ann: You could have said that.

Dave: I did do that many times, but I don’t think people did it. [Laughter] I would say, “Hey, this is where I’m headed next week.” You come in not only knowing the story, but you come in with a lot of questions. “I think I know the story but—?” Because that’s what happened: these women came in, and then you [said], “Let me go behind the scenes to tell you what’s really going on,” which is sort of what we’re going to do today.

Ann: Yes.

Dave: Last time you were here, we hit Eve and—you name it; we did a tour. Today, we’re going to hit Esther.

Ann and I just spoke in Branson, Missouri, to high school football coaches and their wives. We had Saturday afternoon free, and we went to the Sight and Sound Theater and watched Queen Esther. It was fascinating! We had camels walking by us in the aisles [Laughter] and birds flying around in this place. The story of Esther is epic.

Ann: One of the things that’s always intriguing to me about the book of Esther, too, is that God’s name isn’t mentioned.

Nana: Yes.

Ann: I was always fascinated. And yet, He is all over the Scripture.

Nana: Oh, absolutely.

Ann: And I think this is a really inspiring book for women.

Nana: Yes.

Ann: So, take us there, Nana. Take us to Esther.

Nana: Yes, the book of Esther is 10 chapters, and God’s name is never mentioned. [Laughter] And speaking of, maybe even, dark narratives, there are some scary things in Esther. The children of Israel are in exile. Well, they were captured, remember, initially by the Babylonians, and then, the Persians took over the Babylonians, and Cyrus said, “Hey, you guys can go back and you can go build the temple.”

But not everyone went back. Some people remained outside of Jerusalem, outside of the Promised Land. Esther and her uncle, Mordecai, were some of these people. They remained in the Persian Empire in Susa, and, actually, Mordecai is working within the court of Xerxes, who’s the king.

So, the book of Esther begins with just this feast. You know right away: “Man, Xerxes is rich.” The narrator is just in detail: the curtains, the cushions, and the couches of gold and silver. There’s no doubt that this king is rich. There’s a sense in which you want to see him as rich and powerful, but very soon, very quickly, you begin to see: “Okay, he is rich, but he’s not altogether in control. He’s not altogether powerful, because he’s displaying his riches.”

One of the trophies he wants to display is his wife, Vashti. So, he calls for her to come with her crown, and she says, “No.” [Laughter] He almost reminds me of the big bad wolf, right? [Laughter] In the stories I read to my kids, he’s huffing and he’s puffing, but he can’t make her obey. She does not come.

He’s enraged and all of his officials rush to control public opinion. So, he puts out this command, and his commandments are supposed to be irrevocable. They’re supposed to be—once he puts forth an edict or a decree, it cannot be overturned, because this is how powerful he is, right?

So, there will be all of these decrees throughout the story that will kind of move the plot line of the story. But you’ll see along the way, time after time, people will disobey them because Xerxes is not the ultimate king in this story. There’s another King who sits on a much higher throne; and even though his name isn’t mentioned, His decrees are really the ones that are truly irrevocable.

Ann: Do you think he was totally humiliated when his queen wouldn’t come?

Nana: I think he was.

Ann: Me, too.

Nana: He’s supposed to be the king.

Ann: Yes, and he’s in front of all these people—

Nana: —yes.

Ann: —calling for her, and she says, “No.”

Nana: She [says], “I’m not coming. I’m not going to be displayed as a trophy before your people.” It is actually very courageous of her.

Ann: I think so.

Nana: Yes.

Dave: And there’s a lot of alcohol going around in this book too,—Nana: —there is.

Dave: —so, he’s making decisions, sometimes, sort of inebriated.

Nana: Yes. He says, “Okay, you won’t be queen anymore.” They put out this order saying, “All men should control their wives,” which is obviously something the King himself cannot do, [Laughter] right?

So, they say, “We’re going to gather all these young women in Susa, and we’re going to replace Vashti with one of them.” This is how Esther enters the story.

Ann: Give us Esther’s background, which is pretty fascinating.

Nana: Yes. Esther is an Israelite young lady, and she is an orphan, actually. She’s living and being raised by her uncle, Mordecai.

Ann: Do we have any idea what happened to her parents?

Nana: It doesn’t say. It says that he took her in and raised her as his own daughter when she lost her parents. Mordecai, we do know, was one of the Jews who was removed when the Exiles were removed from Israel and brought into Babylon, initially. It says that he was one of them. So, he had obviously been there longer. I don’t know; it’s interesting. Esther is interesting to me. I’m not sure if she was born in Sousa. I’m not sure if she ever remembers being in the Promised Land. I was born in Ghana myself. I lived in Ghana until I was about 10, and I moved to the US. There’s definitely something that happens when you’re a third-cultured person; when you are formed by two different cultures. It’s hard to know where your allegiance is. It’s kind of [wondering], “Am I fully American? Am I Ghanaian? How does this work?” I wonder if that was Esther. She may have grown up in Sousa (and yes, she is an Israelite), raised by this uncle, and it says that she “obeyed” Mordecai.

I’m a mother through adoption myself. I know what it is to take someone and claim them and raise them as your own. Mordecai is raising her as his daughter, and it seems like she’s an obedient daughter; that she’s listening to her uncle who is kind of her father and doing everything he says. So, when they take her into Xerxes’ harem, he tells her, “Don’t let anyone know that you are a Jew.” It says she did everything that he said. She presents herself as a Persian maiden, and she’s chosen to be the queen.

Ann: What do you think these women felt coming in? Did they have any choice in the matter?

Nana: I see it as exploitation.

Ann: Yes, me, too.

Nana: Yes. They gather all these young women for his use.

Ann: And I wonder what Esther felt at that point: was she humiliated? Was she scared?

Nana: That’s one of the things I wish we had: the benefit of her views.

Ann: Yes.

Nana: I’m seeing her being led into that harem. I wish we knew exactly how she felt.

Ann: I’m just imagining—of course, this is conjecture, but I’m imagining: this isn’t how she thought her life would go.

Nana: Sure.

Ann: I’m sure she thought she’d get married; she’d have a family, just like all the other Israelite women that she knew. And yet, now, she’s in the midst of a harem.

Nana: Yes.

Ann: I wonder if she thought, “God, where are you?”

Nana: Yes.

Ann: But I bet Mordecai said, “Oh, He’s with you.”

Nana: Sure, yes. We’ll hear his words later on in the story and how his words will influence Esther,—Ann: —which makes me also think of women today who are wondering, “God, are You seeing where I am?”

Nana: Yes.

Ann: “Are You in control? Do You know me? Have You seen my anguish and my tears and my fear and my hope in You?”

Nana: Yes.

Ann: How would You answer that?

Nana: Esther is taken with hundreds of women, and she could have been lost; but the narrator never loses sight of Esther. We have the benefit of the end of the story, so, we know that God is providentially, even though—oh, man, she may have been very discouraged, just like you said. This isn’t probably how she saw her life. We know that God is working,—Ann: —yes.

Nana: —and His Providence is at work. He is setting her up for something she can’t even imagine, “for such a time as this.”

The same can be true for all of us, right? We might go through something [where] there’s so much confusion; a twist and a turn in the plot line of our own stories that we did not see coming, that we can’t understand. But God is a God Who is Sovereign. Remember, He’s the King on the highest throne, and His Providence prevails, right? He is working, and He can set up a situation for our good in a way that we can’t even imagine, even in a moment of confusion.

Ann: Isn’t that so good to know and remember?

Nana: Yes, yes.

Dave: Here’s a question I have, knowing that, as a man or as a woman; my question for two women sitting here is: “Do you gals, ever feel controlled by men?”

As you’re hearing a story about Esther: two men. One, not so good—the king—and a good man, her uncle; but they both are sort of directing her life. She even gets in this pageant because she’s told to. I don’t know. I was just sitting here thinking, “Do you—or speak for most women; do you—feel like men control your lives in some way? And is that hard?”

Nana: The only answer that comes to mind is I am very thankful that I have the benefit of being married to a godly man who has subjected himself to God’s Hand. Honestly, I’m not saying this. He may be listening to me right now, [Laughter] because he’s in the studio—

Dave: —he’d better be.

Nana: —and I promise, I’m not saying it because of that. [Laughter] But I really do trust my husband; I do. And I see the way that he serves not only me, but our daughters.

When I read the book of Esther, honestly, the little women that come to my mind are my children, my two daughters. They are 12, right now, and 10. If Daddy says it, they’re listening, and they’re obeying. And I see a little bit of Esther in them.

Mordecai is ultimately obeying a higher King. There’s this theme of obedience. That is my prayer for my daughters: that they wouldn’t just obey Daddy because Daddy says so, but that they would see someone even higher and above their father; that their allegiance, their trust, and their obedience would be for that bigger Father, that higher Father.

That’s my prayer for them, that we would be women who certainly don’t feel like we are being moved and controlled by men; but may it be that our trust is in a higher Father who is really good; that by His mercy, we would have husbands and pastors and elders and men in our lives who, themselves, are subjected to a higher King.

Dave: Yes. And I wonder, even as you said, Nana, that you trust your husband—

Nana: —I do.

Dave: —for the woman that’s—

Ann: —I trust you too, Hon.

Dave: Well, I mean, I hope so! But I’m thinking there are plenty of women that literally heard Nana say that and say,” I don’t. I don’t trust my husband. He may be a churchgoing man, but he’s not—.” So, what you guys just said is: the ultimate trust is above him as a man. Maybe he’s not even serving Him. That’s the theme of this Esther story. God reveals Himself.

Ann: I feel like we have to add that, if there is any kind of physical abuse going on, then your role is to remove yourself from the abuse with your children, so you can get safe, because the most loving thing you can do is to separate from your husband for your own safety’s sake.

Alright, take us back to Esther.

Nana: At this point, there’s a new character who comes in. His name is Haman. And oh, I love biblical context. I know. It’s like, “What? What is that word? Why are you throwing that in there?” But biblical context is when you see a story in one part of the Bible in light of a bigger narrative. Sometimes, it makes it richer, and it just brings out.

So, I’ll say this: Mordecai is from the tribe of Benjamin, and when you look at his ancestors, it goes all the way down to King Saul. Haman is an Agagite. His tribe goes down to this king named Agag.

There’s a story told where God tells King Saul, “I want you to get rid of the Amalekites, and Agag is the king. I want you to get rid of the Amalekites. Remember, this is the story where Saul kind of obeys, but not completely—

Dave: —yes—

Nana: —and he keeps some of the sheep and some of the property of the Amalekites. He doesn’t get rid of Agag, and Samuel comes and says, “I hear sheep.” There’s this, “You haven’t obeyed completely.” God takes the Kingdom from Saul because of that disobedience.

Ann: Nana, I didn’t know this connection!

Nana: Yes.

Ann: That’s so big!

Nana: It’s such an important thing to think about, because why is Mordecai not bowing down to Haman? Why doesn’t he want to bow to him? We’re never told, but if you know the bigger story, his obedience is to that God who initially said, “Blot out these people because of their sin.”

Ann: Wow.

Nana: Xerxes puts out this law that everyone has to bow down to Haman, but Mordecai says, “No. There’s a higher King, and I’m not going to bow down.”

So, this villain decides that he will get rid of not just Mordecai, but all the Jewish people. He manipulates Xerxes who, again, is so gullible. He is not the king in charge! [Laughter] He signs another edict saying that there’s a particular day, the 15th day of Adar, where all the Jews can be destroyed: all their children, men and women.

We’ve seen this in the Bible before, right? Pharoah wanted to destroy the Hebrew boys Athaliah tried to destroy David’s sons. In this story of Esther, it’s not just the boys; it’s not just the men; it’s the women; it’s their children. He wants to wipe out all the Jews within the Persian Empire.

What does this mean? God’s promise of the seed will be destroyed, right? The seed that God promised to Eve, all the way in the garden, that He reaffirmed to Abraham: “I will make you into a great nation.” To plan to kill and abolish the Jews is literally to say, “I’m putting an end to this work that God is doing in bringing about a nation through whom He would redeem all the world.”

This is Haman’s plan. No wonder the Jews—

Ann: —and we could say “Satan’s plan” as well, right?

Nana: —yes! Absolutely!

Ann: Yes.

Nana: Oh, and that’s such a good point, because human beings can make decisions, but there’s always a bigger, cosmic battle happening. But even in our own personal lives, there might be something—there’s a decision that I make, or someone is making a decision, or there’s some intention.

Jesus is the Seed of the woman, but His people are also part of that seed. In Genesis, it says that there will be the seed of the woman, but there’s also the seed of the serpent—

Ann: —yes.

Nana: —who will try to strike the seed of the woman. There are moments in our lives where that serpent will try to strike us in our daily, everyday lives. There’s always a cosmic battle, but God’s purposes cannot be overcome.

Ann: Amen.

Nana: They cannot be overcome with nations, and they can’t be overcome in those He has redeemed in Christ.

Ann: I think we’re out of time today, but let’s—

Dave: —we haven’t even gotten to the—

Ann: —I know!

Dave: —climax of the story!

Ann: We’ve got to—

Dave: —it’s a cliffhanger right now.

Ann: —have some application. Even as you just said that, with God’s plan,—Nana: —yes.

Ann: —what do you think we should end with today in terms of application? We’ve given a lot of different little things,

Nana: —yes.

Ann: —but how would you stop today, if this is your Bible study, with your women?

Nana: Absolutely.

Shelby: So, what’s some good application from what you’ve heard today? Well, Nana will be back in just a second to fill us in.

But first, I’m Shelby Abbott, and you’ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Nana Dolce on FamilyLife Today. If you’ve enjoyed the conversation, you can get this content in a unique and special format. Nana and Dave and Ann have some exciting news for you.

Nana: I’m so glad that our discussion today is going to be packaged in an e-mail series that will go out to listeners.

Ann: This is kind of a—

Dave: —yes, on video.

Ann: —this is a pretty exciting deal!

Dave: Oh, yes! I don’t know if we’ve ever done this.

You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com. You can find the link there in the show notes, and you can watch it.

Ann: And you’re going to have questions. This is a great little opportunity we’re giving you to dive deeper into this series on Making Sense of the Unexpected.

Shelby: So again, you can sign up for the e-mail series, a four-week video series, with Nana Dolce. Just head over to FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can find it in the show notes. Make sure you go back and listen to the past episodes with Nana Dolce talking about The Seed of the Woman. You’ll find it all in the show notes section on FamilyLifeToday.com.

We just can’t get enough of Nana Dolce, and she’s written a book called The Seed of the Woman: 30 Narratives That Point to Jesus. This book really helps you discover the profound role of women in shaping the redemptive history that we find in Scripture, and how to find your place in the unfolding story of Jesus Christ. It’s a fantastic book to help you learn and appreciate more about what the Scripture teaches on the Seed of the woman.

This book is going to be our gift to you when you give to FamilyLife Today. You can get your copy right now, with any donation that you make, by going online to familylifetoday.com and clicking on the “Donate Now” button at the top of the page. Or you could just give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” And feel free to drop us a donation in the mail if you’d like. Our address is: FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.

Okay, now some personal application from Nana Dolce about God and His purposes for you:

Nana: You might be listening today, and you feel like that serpent—that seed of the serpent—is striking at something in your life. Whether it’s your marriage, or it’s your children, or your mental health, or you just feel lonely; whatever the case might be, God’s purposes for His people will not be overcome.

Ann: That’s good.

Dave: Yes, I would just say that can help you sleep tonight.

Nana: Yes.

Dave: There are times when I don’t know. I know the Scripture, and I know the story, and I get lost in, “Yes, but… Yes, but…” And I think you need to lie down tonight and [say], “This is true.”

Ann: “God’s purposes cannot be overcome.”

Dave: “I’m going to experience His peace.”

Ann: Yes, that’s good.

Shelby: Now, coming up tomorrow, Nana Dolce is back, emphasizing the need to obey God over fearing worldly consequences. I’ve struggled with that quite a bit, so I’m looking forward to hearing her tomorrow.

On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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