Upon Waking: Jackie Hill Perry

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Upon Waking

Guest:Jackie Hill Perry

From the series:Upon Waking (Day 1 of 2)

Air date:November 21, 2024

Shelby: Hey, Shelby Abbott here. It’s the gift giving time of year, and I know that can make some of you really excited and you actually might also feel a little bit of dread when you hear that because you just don’t know what to get. Well, one of the things that I think is the most impactful is giving a gift that encourages experience or moments that really have a lasting impact. And that’s why I wanted to remind you that FamilyLife’s Weekend to Remember gift cards are now 50 percent off. In addition to that, all of our devotionals are 20 percent off.

So whether you or your spouse could use some intentional time to reconnect, or you know a couple who would benefit from that, this is the perfect opportunity and the perfect gift. It’s more than just a getaway. A Weekend to Remember is where couples can focus on their marriage, learn from experts, and reconnect in ways that can be life changing. So head over to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the Black Friday sale banner. There you’ll find Weekend to Remember gift cards at 50 percent off and our devotionals at 20 percent off. Alright, happy shopping. Let’s get into the program.

Jackie: I was reading Numbers like a month ago, and I was really struck by how often it talked about how when Moses fell on his face. Like mid-sentence, Israel is, ”You should have left us in Egypt. We’re going to die.” And Moses fell on his face in the middle of them complaining. I feel like my abiding isn’t as immediate as it should be.

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.

Dave:This is FamilyLife Today.

Alright, so I’m holding this book in my hand, and when I picked it up, Jackie Hill Perry is here. She wrote this. Jackie, I literally said, I love this cover.

Jackie: Yeah.

Dave: I mean, I really did. I mean, as soon as I saw it, I’m like, I really, really like this cover. So way to go. I mean, I’m guessing you designed it, you picked it out, you did the whole thing.

Jackie: I didn’t design it, but I was very adamant and critical about what we decided because all of my covers: Holier Than Thou; Gay Girl, Good God, they’ve all had a particular design aesthetic to it. And so I just think beauty matters. Beauty draws people in.

Ann:Describe the cover for those that aren’t watching on YouTube.

Jackie: So it’s like little—

Dave:There you go on YouTube,

Jackie: —little ripped pages with some gradient colors and a bird that’s singing. And so the idea is that the bird upon waking will sing a song to the Lord. So I think it’s an implicit way to communicate the title of the book.

Ann: You start out with this, so I’m just going to ask you, so what’s your aversion to devotionals?

Jackie: Devotionals feel, not all of them. So you have like the Oswald Chambers, the Spurgeons, the Ortlunds has a devotional on Psalms. There are some weighty ones, but a lot of them just feel extremely superficial to me and shallow and cute and plain. It’s like wake up in the morning and say, “Go Daddy, God.” I don’t like that stuff because my life is not cute. My life is not shallow. My life is not easy. And so I need a devotional that actually compliments where I am when I wake up. And so it felt like, “Man, why don’t you just write what you want to read,” which is devotionals that are more Christ-centered and more text forward than what is often presented.

Ann: What do you mean text forward?

Jackie: There’s a common thing where the devotionals feel more like scripture influenced opinions, like 500 words of someone just talking about a thing versus someone walking through a text. And so I think that’s my spiritual gift is teaching. So I was like, what would it look like for me to just exegete a passage, briefly explain it, offer some applications so that what you’re getting is not just my thoughts, but actually God’s word. And so that’s why I say in the introduction that I think it’s an appetizer. It’s the guacamole and the chips. It’s the calamari and the marinara sauce. It’s not supposed to be the main course. It’s supposed to whet your appetite for the scriptures because that is actually the real bread.

Ann: Well, it’s interesting. I walked into our son and daughter-in-law’s house about a month ago. They live in Colorado. And this book, I hadn’t seen the cover of your book yet, but it was sitting on the coffee table.

Jackie: It caught your eye.

Ann: It caught my eye.

Jackie: Praise God.

Ann: But also, I said to Kendall like, “Hey, how are you liking the devotional that Jackie wrote?” And this is pretty great because she said, “This is the most inspiring but convicting devotional.” She said, “Every day I’m inspired, but I’m also like, God just grabs me and says something to me.” I’ve never heard people say that usually about a devotional. They’re kind of a feel good, “It’s my scripture for the day.” But I thought that was a real compliment and it intrigued me like, “I’m going to have to read that whole thing.”

Jackie: And you know what I think that is? It’s not me.

Ann: It’s the Word.

Jackie: It’s the Bible.

Ann: Yes, yes.

Jackie: That’s what happens to people when they read the Bible. It’s a sword cutting in between the heart and marrow exposing the intentions of the heart. And so I think if our books centered God’s Word more often, then we would see ourselves better,

Ann: Who would you be without God’s word? If you weren’t in the Word continually, what would Jackie Hill Perry look like?

Jackie: A smart fool.

Dave: Smart fool.

Jackie: I would be a smart fool.

Dave:Explain that.

Jackie: I would be intelligent. I would be thoughtful, but I would be arrogant. I would be more self-reliant. I would trust my thoughts and my techniques and my strategies to navigate through life. I think that’s always something I have to fight against is it is easier for me to think that I, “Yeah, I know what to do. That makes sense.”

And so I know when I’m not in the scriptures, I’m leaning more into my own wisdom. Even the previous things like, “Oh, that succeeded when I did that, so if I just do that same thing again, then it’ll work,” where it’s just like you’re trusting yourself too much. And so that’s what I think; I would be a very intelligent fool. I would be mean. I would not be loving. I would not be kind. I would not be holy. I would not be consistent. I would be selfish. I would be everything that I was in the world, with a platform.

Ann: So God’s Word is everything.

Jackie: Oh, it’s the thing. I was thinking this morning, I was in my car yesterday reading through Psalms crying, and I was like, “How do we make it without this?” Like, “How?” it refocused me and reoriented me and gave me a perspective that I did not naturally have. And I just wonder if that is why we’re so fragile and frail. It’s because we’re not being strengthened by the scriptures. We are fragile. We have this treasure and jars of clay, but to show that surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. So yeah, I need Him.

Dave:I mean, what was going on yesterday and what’d you read?

Jackie: Man, life is hard. Life is hard.

Dave:I mean, we watched when you came in. You got kids at home, your mom’s watching them.

Ann: And a nanny.

Dave:It’s a crazy, crazy world with your young kids, nine years old down to two so I know that’s crazy, but was something going on yesterday?

Jackie: I think life, I will say it in the most abstract, non-transparent way possible. I think it feels like God is forcing me to grow up, if that makes sense. It feels like I’m learning what it means to be on the narrow road. I’m learning what it means to actually depend on Him in every single way. And so it feels like every area of my life is being intensified. It’s kind of like you have two options. You allow Satan to use it, or you allow God to use it. If Satan uses it, you’ll give up. If God uses it, you’ll be steadfast. And so that’s where I am.

Ann: So when you get to that point where you’re in your car, you’re reading the Psalms, and you’re desperate, you’re saying that’s a good place to be?

Jackie: Oh yeah. Because when you read the Psalms, that’s where they were too. They’re like, “God, where are you? Do you hear me? My tears are my food day and night, yet I will hope.” At some point in the tears and some point in the confession and some point in the desperation, their heart is strengthened. And it doesn’t mean that the circumstances have changed. It just means that you navigate through it in a way where you’re not as weak. And you are weak, but you’re not as weak.

Dave:And I love, I mean I’m sure you’re familiar with Psalm 73. It’s one of my favorite because He does that. He’s like, “Why do the evil prosper? I don’t understand.” And then he says, “And then I went in your sanctuary,” and the whole Psalm changes. I understood. I thought, “Why don’t I live there?” because I live sort of in the “Why do the evil prosper?” What’s going on? I got to stop upon waking and say, “I got to live in truth.” We don’t do that.

Ann: I think too, as you’re talking, Jackie, I’m thinking of all the listeners that are desperate. It’s hard right now. Times are crazy. All of us, we get to a point, we’re like “I’m tired. I can’t do it.” And I think that’s a good place to be. Just what you’re saying. It’s like we need to be there.

The older I get, the more desperate I get. You’d think I’d pull it together. You’d think I’d be like, “I’m cool now. I got this.” I’m more and more desperate. I find myself, I can’t be out of the Word because of the desperateness of my soul. I like that you say your devotional is an appetizer because you want us to be deeper. You want us to go for the full course main meal?

Jackie: Yeah. It’s the chips and the guac. Because I also think as ministry leaders and influential voices, it is easy to cultivate people that trust you only, so they listen to your words. They watch your sermons; they watch your Instagram reels and your clips. And I think it is imperative that you do as Paul or Peter used to do, which is like, no, like Christ, like John the Baptist. No, like go to him. He is the one whose sandals I cannot untie or whatever. And so I think I want people to have Him. If you trust in me and my word and my wisdom, that’s insufficient. That’s not going to sustain you. But I think if you got Christ, you’ll be good.

Dave:Now, is there a devo in here that you love? I’m sure you love them all. I watched you read day two.

Jackie: Oh, about social media?

Dave:Yeah, I mean, I was like, “Oh, that was so good.”

Ann: Read the beginning for us, Dave.

Dave:Oh, I’ll let Jackie read it.

Ann: Oh, that’s a good idea.

Dave: She wrote it.

Jackie: That’s a great idea.

Jackie: One, the scripture is Colossians 4:2, which says, “Devote yourselves to prayer with an alert mind and a thankful heart.” No one likes to be bored, especially now in this age with a million ways to be entertained. Things like the optionality of commercials reinforced our impatience. When only a decade or so ago sitting through an advertisement with twiddling thumbs was an obligation. Now it’s a choice no one makes. Keep the entertainment going we say.

Then there’s a wonderfully terrible invention of social media that entertains without ceasing like the Colosseum in our hands. In one swipe videos of a recipe, a 12 second sermon, a slam dunk, a knee on a neck, an article about nothing or everything, a riot at the Capitol and a dog singing Sinatra. It’s no wonder then that when it’s time to pray the length and consistency of the prayer suffers under the weight of a mind that’s completely uncomfortable with boredom.

I learned that from Rich Villodas. He was talking in his book just about we want to be incessantly entertained and how that’s actually affecting our ability to meditate and to pray. I think when you really think about that way, it’s like, “Oh yeah, prayer feels boring; that’s why I don’t do it.” “Oh, yeah, the Bible feels boring; that’s why I don’t do it.” I remember my kids the way they will pause a show to use the bathroom.

Ann: Yes.

Jackie: That was not an option for me. Or when we’re at doctor’s offices, I said, what would happen right now if none of us had phones?

Ann: I think that all the time. We’re all on our phones.

Jackie: What would happen?

Ann: We would talk.

Jackie: We would talk; we would engage. We would fellowship, but we would also have time to turn over things in our minds related to God.

Ann: Yes.

Jackie: And I think if we thought about our addiction to entertainment, it would shift the way we engage with the Lord in our quiet times. That’s it.

Dave:Yeah. The other day, this is so embarrassing, I shouldn’t even say this, but I was going to the bathroom, and I didn’t have my phone.

Jackie: You hated it.

Dave:I was like, “I can’t do this. I got to find my phone before I go to the bathroom.” Why don’t I sit here for a couple minutes without a phone to look at and scroll through, email, whatever it is. I was like, I literally take my phone everywhere and it’s a stimulant for a boring life. And it’s like, no, you could pray. You could actually meditate. You could think. When you did the video, I remember you going, “Our Father who art in heaven. Hey, what about—” I mean, it’s like these thoughts pop in. It was so real. It’s like we all do that.

Jackie: Yeah, we do.

Dave: It’s scary.

Ann: Okay, well talk to the person that’s like “Everything you’re saying is me. I can’t keep my mind. I can’t pray. I’ve got my list of what I have to do today, and then the kids are interrupting me, and I didn’t even know how I would find time to pray.” What would you say to them?

Jackie: Yeah, I mean, without Christ, there will be a cap on your fruitfulness, as a wife, as a mother, as a minister, as a teacher, as a student. I remember there was a time where I had to do a shoot where we have conversations around certain subjects, and I remember I felt dry. I’m usually kind of quick, can access some level of depth or information pretty quickly, fluid, precise, all this stuff. I didn’t have none of that. It felt like I was working hard to be articulate. I was like, “I don’t got nothing to say. This is so strange.” And I was praying about it, and I felt like the Lord was saying like, “You are not sufficient for these things.”

And then I was reading the story with God telling the disciples to go feed all the people with the bread or whatever, and they’re like, “They’re hungry.” He is like, “Yeah, you do it.” But notice they brought the bread, the five loaves and the fish to Jesus first, and He is the one who multiplied it, gave it to them to give away. I feel like that is every Christian’s situation is that God has given you tasks that you actually don’t have the margin or the resources to do well unless you bring it to Him.

And that’s the activity of prayer. It’s just like, “Lord, here is me. Here’s my stuff; here’s my anxiety; here’s my fears; here’s my sin. Do whatever you got to do with me, for me to know You, love You, and then release me to give away all the bread.” And so you can’t afford not to pray. You don’t have that option.

Ann: I think that’s good. It is. There’s a cap on your fruitfulness.

Jackie: Oh yeah.

Ann: Even if you’re a mom. You might be thinking fruitfulness. You could be thinking ministry or Bible study. We’re talking about you as a mom or a wife or a friend. There’s a cap on it.

Dave:Displaying the fruit of Spirit.

Ann: Right. You got—

Jackie: Because you’re going to default to your nature as a mother.

Ann: Exactly.

Jackie: So if your nature is isolation, you’re going to lean into that. It helps you cope and dah, dah, dah. If your default is to be mean and pushy and impatient, you’re going to lean into it because you’re depending on your own resources. And again, you don’t have enough to sustain the call, so you need the Lord.

Ann: And I’ll say this too, for those that struggle with just keeping their mind in prayer, I used to think like, “Lord, I’m just so broken. I cannot keep my thoughts centered on You.” People, I am a walker. I’m a doer. And so what I’ve found is that I go on walks and I’m going to listen to the best podcasts. I’m going to listen to the best sermons, but I find—

Dave:With the Perrys, yeah, of course.

Ann: Of course.

Dave: That’s the podcast.

Ann: But when I take that time, even if it’s 15 minutes or 30 minutes, and all I do is talk to God, the whole time—

Jackie: That’s good.

Ann: It’s so much better. He fills me.

Dave:I walked with her the other day and we’re walking, and she goes, “Hey, when I don’t walk with you, I talk to God, so I don’t care if you’re here or not. I’m talking to God.” She just starts praying out loud.

Ann: —for a long time.

Dave: You’re hoping that as people pick up your devotional book, it is centering them back to Jesus the Word. Is that sort of your vision?

Jackie: Yeah. I want first and foremost for people to experience the value of the scriptures, the beauty of the scriptures and the Christ of the scriptures. You could easily become a person who just becomes theologically focused, where it’s just like you’re excited about the hermeneutics; but you could be excited about the hermeneutics and still miss the Christ. I think that’s what the Pharisees problem was.

Ann: —the Pharisees.

Dave:Oh, yeah, right.

Jackie: You search the scriptures because you think that in them is eternal life, but it is they that testify about me. That’s crazy that the Word shows up and you miss Him. You don’t see Him. I think I want people to see the value of the scriptures in so far as they see how the scriptures point to the Jesus. Because I really do believe we were made for Him. “All things were made through him and for him.” And then another text “Without him, not anything that was made was made.” I think that’s John.

And so it’s like our society, our culture, and even our nature wants us to think that we exist for ourselves. That’s how we’re built. And then we’re living in the last days where men will be lovers of themselves. I think it’s important for us to continue to remember and actually believe I was made for him. I exist for him, and so I’m not even going to be joyful or fruitful or live out my ultimate purpose without him. That’s the point. That is the point. So that’s why I write books. After I die, this can outlive me and help people love God more than they love everything else.

Ann: Talk to the mom who she’s like, “I’m buying this. I’m going to go through this. This is so good.” Talk to her about what you would hope for her.

Jackie: Perhaps that in the busyness of mothering, the fears, the shame, the pride, the sadness, even that you don’t have the freedom that you used to have, the friendships you used to have, that you’re reminded that God is with you in it. I think it’s hard sometimes to believe that mothering is ministry too; that it’s holy too; that it’s sacred too.

I think I’m in a season where I’m pushing into the fact that it feels more like work than anything. And so I’m even talking out of my own life right now where it’s just like, “Lord, help me believe that this is sacred; that this is good; that this is beautiful; that picking up the diapers and sweeping up all the sugar on the floor, dealing with my children, being exposed to things on iPads and stuff. Help me to remember that you’re with me in this.” I hope the devotional could probably do that just by showing you Him and His faithfulness throughout the centuries.

Ann: I like that.

Dave:Yeah. I know that as you were talking about a cap on your fruitfulness, one of the things that I’ve realized over decades of ministry, and I used to say this, if you’re a musician and you’re asked to do a wedding band or come in and sing a secular song and you’re skilled, it’s pretty easy to do. Get the guitar, sing the song. I mean, I do it all the time, and I’m not a great singer, but I could pull off a song and it’d be okay, coffee house type deal. But if you got to lead worship, you still got an instrument in your hand. You still got lyrics. You can fake it and maybe people wouldn’t know. But leading worship is an overflow. And I tell you, I think the room does know, “This guy, this gal, they’ve been with Jesus.”

Jackie: It’s something different.

Dave:I can feel it. It’s coming over. The fruit is coming out. I used to help our worship leader, like, “Man, if you’re not with Jesus all week, don’t get up on that stage and play a song. It’ll be good. It’ll sound good. But there’ll be, at some point we’ll be like, ‘I don’t think this is where he’s been all week.’” Isn’t mothering or fathering or marriage the same thing? Is it any different? It’s got to be an overflow, right?

Jackie: Yeah. This is challenging to me. I think because Jesus says, “Abide in me. You will bear much fruit.”

Ann: What do you think abide—

Jackie: “Apart from me, you can do nothing.”

Ann: You’ve studied abide.

Jackie: Yeah. Abide is a really complicated word when you actually really dig into it. But there is this sense of living in, being at home with, depending on, leaning into this kind of union with Christ, being in Him. And I think the means of grace that he’s given us are always to start. We already united, but reading your Bible, fellowshipping with the saints, prayer, fasting, those spiritual disciplines are forms of abiding. Only if you’re looking for Christ in the spiritual disciplines. Because we can do the things and not actually be doing the things in Him. Does it make sense?

Dave:Yeah.

Jackie: You’re praying because you’re supposed to pray. You’re reading, so you’re supposed to read. You’re worshiping, “You’re a good, good Father,” but your heart is hard. Your heart is not just tender and soft and you’re not looking for Him with intention. And so I think that’s all avenues of abiding, and it’s in the abiding that I’m able to show up. It’s in the abiding that I’m able to be patient. It’s in the abiding that I’m able to be kind. I think my problem is in this season in many of us is that God wants us to abide all day. You get what I’m saying?

Ann: Not just in our devotional.

Jackie: It’s easy to abide when I’m in the car crying out with the song.

Ann: —all by yourself.

Jackie: As soon as I walk in that house and there’s absolute chaos, I jumped out of abiding and I’m in the flesh.

Ann: You’re like, “Jesus, where did you go?”

Dave: Yeah.

Jackie: Okay, go up there, dah, dah, dah. And I’ve been, I was reading Numbers like a month ago, and I was really struck by how often it talked about how when Moses fell on his face. If you read Numbers, count how many times it says, “And then Moses fell on his face.”

Dave: Really?

Jackie: And then Moses—like mid-sentence, Israel is, “You should have left us in Egypt. We’re going to die.” And Moses fell on his face in the middle of them complaining. I feel like my abiding isn’t as immediate as it should be, and I think that’s why my flesh is louder than it should be.

Ann: Well, I think too, when we’re in the midst of parenting, marriage, work, it’s that part of us, especially if we’re doers, we’re fixers, we just do it. “What am I supposed to do? Just let Jesus take over.” I have a piece of that. What does that look like for Him to do it through me? I’m just like, I’m using my sound mind. But there’s also that piece of, as you said, when he’s with me every day, how do I bring Jesus into it? I think you’re right. I think that’s a hard, if flesh just takes over, especially if our kids are smart alecky and disrespectful, yeah.

Jackie: I don’t feel like submitting. I don’t feel like surrender. And it’s not even like you got to, I mean, you can get on your face in the middle of the kitchen if you need to.

Ann: I wish I would’ve done that.

Jackie: That’s a good ministry moment for your children to see. But I think there’s this pause to just rely, so this “Lord, help me.” I just wonder what would change in my life, and listeners’ lives; how it would shift if we just were more reliant, more frequently? I think things would shift a little bit.

Shelby: Neediness is a good thing. Most everything within me, and certainly the culture would disagree, but we as followers of Christ are called to a posture of neediness of God. It can make you feel so weak to admit that, but when you are weak, then you are strong because God will fill your empty hands with Him. I love, love, love that perspective. I’m Shelby Abbott. You’ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jackie Hill Perry on FamilyLife Today.

Jackie has written a book called Upon Waking: 60 Daily Reflections to Discover Ourselves and the God We Were Made For. You can get your copy right now by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com, or you could click on the link in the show notes. Or feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329. Again, that number is 800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word “TODAY.”

I have a question. Are you tired of the tension and the division that exists within our culture right now? It’s not only happening on social media, but it’s happening in family gatherings and our friend groups and even around our own kitchen table. Well, Psalm 133 tells us that it’s good for believers to live in unity with one another but in today’s crazy, easily angered and often offended culture, it could just feel like wishful thinking.

Well, that’s why I’m excited to invite you to join us here at FamilyLife® for a five-week video series from our friend, author, and comedian Amberly Neese. It’s called “Moving Toward Each Other in the Middle of a Divisive World,” and in it, Amberly guides us through how to build peace in our own backyards when things like differing thoughts and opinions and beliefs threaten to create division. You could sign up for this five-week series for free by clicking on the link in the show notes or heading over to FamilyLife.com/FindingCommonGround. Again, that’s FamilyLife.com/FindingCommonGround.

Now, coming up tomorrow, Jackie Hill Perry is back. I’m excited about that. She’s going to talk about humility, authentic worship, and personal surrender when life is just chaotic. That’s tomorrow. We hope you’ll join us.

On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We’ll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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